Hacker News is depressing • Hacker News Board

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#91

Post by DanielBMarkham » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #71

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #51

I do not read the comments on HN of the pieces I write. I used to. I used to love hearing really smart people help out with whatever was puzzling me. Perhaps I can get back to that. But damn, this is a negative bunch. Whatever topic, whatever opinion you have, it's somebody's hot-button issue and somebody else doesn't understand what the fuck you are saying. Sometimes this is the same person. Most times this is dozen…

> This is simply a problem of aggregating tens of thousands of content consumers in one spot and trying to have a single conversation. If I may offer a counter point. One of the complaints about users on HN is how they treat Show HNs. The worst thing is arguably working on something and getting totally ignored. The second worst thing is probably getting verbal abuse for your project, from people you respect, no less.…

What concerns me is that the appearance of knowing what the hell you are talking about and actually knowing what the hell you are talking about is not that different

An example: many times I offer startup advice. Now, if you read my profile, you'll realize that all I can do is feebly try to repeat what I've read. I'm nowhere near an expert. But sometimes I feel that the things that I've read could be helpful to others. So I make what appears to be a knowledgeable comment in the spirit of trying to help. Yes, it sounds a bit cold, analytical, but it has that air of something that might be useful.

We got hundreds of comments like this, on any topic you'd like. Yes, we also have some world-quality researchers that come here and help out. But to the reader, it all looks the same.

We easily confuse the social nature of appearing to be critical and helpful -- let's be honest, looking smart to our peers -- with the actual value we might be providing.

HN is a place to go to read really biting comments that appear to dissect things into their core elements. But many times it's just wankers making easy criticisms from a Monday-morning quarterback perspective.

I love the open forum, and I love the personalities and people here, but as you grow, social posturing gets way more traction than actually providing value, even though both types of comments are indistinguishable from each other. That's just a function of crowds.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#92

Post by mnicole » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

Some of the arguments here are that if you post something to the web, you can't be in control of where it ends up. While I agree with that sentiment on the whole, HN shouldn't be a place where you submit articles that are clearly just somebody's snippet of an opinion, but rather actual news or human interest stories that err on the tech side. Others are suggesting that you just avoid the thread that is about you, and I think that's irresponsible; people have the right to correct information about themselves and their opinions.

We've seen all sorts of ShowHNs where the person who made it wasn't ready to post it yet, but someone got ahead of them. They rush into the comments to do due diligence, but sometimes the damage is already done. Now if the author wanted to post it again once it is finally complete, they'll likely end up with comments like "Didn't we see this already?" and potentially get less click-throughs considering. We've seen blog entries torn to shreds and the author show up hours late to a dead thread, hoping to do any necessary damage control or simply answer questions that could have changed the entire flow of conversation.

Not being fully in control of where my content ends up and not being able to be in every conversation about what I write is a big contributor to why I don't write at all. When someone posts my content here, it's assumed that it's to be taken seriously or that it is worthwhile. Despite that not being the case, people respond as though it is, and thus we find ourselves in this situation.

Even if there was some sort of tag like #nohn or something to highlight the fact that if discussion on the issue should be kept on the site because, as it wasn't intended to be a HN-worthy piece. That way, if it's posted anyways (as I don't believe in blocking the URL entirely), the author's intent is clear.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#93

Post by RyanZAG » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

I find this post by Dave Winer a bit hypocritical? The reason he is writing about Hacker News being depressing is because of the comments against his article on Yahoo acquisitions and Marissa Mayer. As he says, he wrote it in 15 mins and I'd probably write something similar - but what he doesn't mention is how depressing that post must have been if Marissa were to read it. He makes a point about abuse being bad - but did he stop to consider that he wasn't being exactly friendly in his post about Marissa? He was publicly discussing a fairly "closed door" meeting he had and extrapolating that into a rant.

Basically, if you're going to publicly throw stones, I feel it's fairly expected that someone is going to be throwing stones back your way. There is nothing perfect about Hacker News - but I don't think that Dave Winer is perfect either. Blocking off content is not the solution, however, and I'm not sure what the solution really is. Sticking your head in the sand, perhaps? At any rate, if there is a solution, I'm sure pg and YC will work something out.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#94

Post by Udo » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #88

As a top-voted dissenting opinion on Dave's piece yesterday, I find myself compelled to chime in. > I honestly don't care what the HN trolls, and the people who upvote them, supposedly "think" about me. If that's true, why 750 words on the subject? The issue I take with Dave Winer is that he seems to feel as though his accomplishments or contributions somehow elevate his words beyond criticism. I will say again what…

> Sometimes we're not going to worship.

It's not about worship. It's about civility and making an effort to write comments to a higher standard.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#95

Post by ianstallings » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

You know I would agree if the situation was unwarranted and about something trivial. Like say if your hamburger doesn't have cheese it's unacceptable to slap the cook and cry out I SAID CHEESE MOTHERF...ER! But when you are in a profession and you get dressed down for acting like you have no sense, well it's time to pull those marshmallow pants up because there are real life consequences, such as time and money being wasted. And that is abusive to everyone.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#96

Post by npsimons » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #41

Udo wrote: post #12

I'm very sorry it has come this far. It's easy to forget we have a tendency to make remarks about people online that we would never bring up in a personal conversation. I'm not excluding myself here, I too feel I'm sometimes harsher online than offline - and it sadly also happened in the Dave Winer thread yesterday. People can come across in a certain way through their writing that we would never attribute to them if…

"It's important to acknowledge that most commenters on HN do not behave that way, but some do and they are very loud." I think part of this is just the dynamics of community-moderated comments. In my experience, the way to get upvotes in any such forum (not just HN) is to express an opinion in the strongest terms you possibly can. "X is dead" gets upvotes. "X has some challenges to overcome, and it might" doesn't. Pe…

In my experience, the way to get upvotes in any such forum (not just HN) is to express an opinion in the strongest terms you possibly can. "X is dead" gets upvotes. "X has some challenges to overcome, and it might" doesn't.

Of the most satisfying outcomes on HN, mine have been when I've posted a reasoned, moderate comment and been upvoted. Sure, I try and avoid flamefests, and I've noticed a bit of trolling being upvoted, but overall, I think HN has risen above. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm lucky, but it doesn't seem that bad, yet. Of course, there's always room for improvement . . .

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#97

Post by return0 » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

FreeBird wrote: post #70

simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

That's nothing. Check these comments, anywhere else you would get summarily fired for emails like this. http://www.muktware.com/5276/linus-torvalds-secure-boot-supp... "Guys, this is not a dick-sucking contest. If you want to parse PE binaries, go right ahead. If Red Hat wants to deep-throat Microsoft, that's your issue..." What if that email was to a female kernel dev? What if a whizkid reads the kernel dev mailing…

You 're implying that women don't swear?

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#98

Post by patrickmay » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

npsimons wrote: post #67

simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

EDIT: In the spirit of being less negative, I'm deleting my original comment. I still contend that Mauro was in the wrong, and refused to acknowledge or fix his mistake, but will agree that Linus probably could have handled it better.

How about pointing out the problem calmly and rationally, like you just did?

The written equivalent of spittle-flecked screaming is neither professional nor constructive. Unless, of course, the goal is to hound someone out of the community and make others less likely to participate, in which case that was an excellent comment.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#99

Post by danilocampos » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #94

danilocampos wrote: post #88

As a top-voted dissenting opinion on Dave's piece yesterday, I find myself compelled to chime in. > I honestly don't care what the HN trolls, and the people who upvote them, supposedly "think" about me. If that's true, why 750 words on the subject? The issue I take with Dave Winer is that he seems to feel as though his accomplishments or contributions somehow elevate his words beyond criticism. I will say again what…

> Sometimes we're not going to worship. It's not about worship. It's about civility and making an effort to write comments to a higher standard.

I write to my standard. You write to yours. We each get little buttons where people vote. That's the deal.

I personally find Dave's attitude of self-entitlement to be very toxic. Coming first doesn't elevate you above reproach or scrutiny. Success and progress require questioning and even defying authority. I'm incredibly distrustful of anyone who would discourage that. So he's going to demand people be impressed – and I'm going to demand they think for themselves.

As a human being, I'm incredibly full of shit. On an ongoing basis. And often times I don't know it. So I kinda need people to point it out to me. This goes for nearly everyone else too. Anyone who says otherwise, who suggests they're above that for any reason, is trying to sell you something.

Re: Hacker News is depressing

#100

Post by gurkendoktor » Tue, May 21, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

npsimons wrote: post #67

simonsarris wrote: post #25

This is curious, maybe a little too reactionary[1], but I think we could use the introspection. On the one hand, being argued about is a problem a lot of people would like to have. I spent two years making a large canvas diagramming library and I would have loved for it to have frontpage'd on HN, even if everyone just told me it was terrible. On the other hand, I do think the meanness of programming communities is a…

EDIT: In the spirit of being less negative, I'm deleting my original comment. I still contend that Mauro was in the wrong, and refused to acknowledge or fix his mistake, but will agree that Linus probably could have handled it better.

> At that point what can you do?

Take action (remove commit rights), message Mauro in private, call him and let him know you are disappointed and why, ... but having an ASCII-based temper just makes Linux and/or programming look silly. Kernel dev is rough but there is plenty of time to let things cool down and let rational criticism sink in.