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Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

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Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#51

Post by bluedino »

TheCowboy wrote: post #29
nicholassmith wrote: post #13

Missing at the end of the title 'as long as you're willing to work your ass off getting good at it'. There might be a shortage in the talent pool but I can't see lots of companies taking on crap devs to put bums in seats.

These articles seem to frequently discount the hard work part of the equation, and make it sound like anyone can pick up a keyboard and get a job. The "no degree, no problem" idea isn't backed up by my personal experience. I wish it were that easy, but I still find myself struggling to break in. I've been told by temp agencies that my associates degree is worthless here as well. I wish I had known over a year ago tha…

> The "no degree, no problem" idea isn't backed up by my personal experience. I wish it were that easy, but I still find myself struggling to break in.

I've found in a lot of companies in middle America, it's nearly impossible to get in with out a BS. Even if you know someone.

The smaller companies will often take you but the pay and benefits are usually lower. On the other hand, they're more likely to have flexible schedules, allow working from home, and not have a dress code.

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#52

Post by jeffasinger »

nbouscal wrote: post #16

This is not necessarily a good thing for the web development field. This is how you end up with people with large gaps in their knowledge responsible for parts of your codebase. To be clear, it is entirely possible to be self-taught and learn everything you need to know. I'm self-taught, and I like to think I've filled in most of the gaps by now. I've also worked with a few self-taught people who make me feel like a…

I just had the experience of interviewing about 10 grad students from a computer science program that's relatively highly regarded (definitely not top 10, but most would associate CS with the school).

Only one of the candidates was able to explain any meaningful difference between GET and POST in HTTP.

I don't know that universities are places that are likely to impart this type of knowledge in their grads.

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#53

Post by chudi »

jeffasinger wrote: post #52
nbouscal wrote: post #16

This is not necessarily a good thing for the web development field. This is how you end up with people with large gaps in their knowledge responsible for parts of your codebase. To be clear, it is entirely possible to be self-taught and learn everything you need to know. I'm self-taught, and I like to think I've filled in most of the gaps by now. I've also worked with a few self-taught people who make me feel like a…

I just had the experience of interviewing about 10 grad students from a computer science program that's relatively highly regarded (definitely not top 10, but most would associate CS with the school). Only one of the candidates was able to explain any meaningful difference between GET and POST in HTTP. I don't know that universities are places that are likely to impart this type of knowledge in their grads.

I think that this is not a good example, yes you should know http from your networks classes, but you need a highly specialized worker in a really big field, you just cant expect that everyone know everything that you need, maybe the students that you interview know more about OS or maybe Graphics and nothing about the web.

I think its just a broad field! Im doing a MS in CS and if I would apply to some work in 3D I wouldnt get a job because thats not what I like and I dont see people from the 3D field complaining that the schools dont prepare the students properly

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#54

Post by randomdata »

sanxiyn wrote: post #46
jonknee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but if you wanted to actually design the industrial fasteners your education would probably be questioned. That's more akin to software development.

To me software development seems more akin to (say) game art design. As long as you can program (or draw) -- which can be checked by portfolio -- education is less important.

If you have a great portfolio of designing fasteners as a hobby, couldn't the same be said of that job?

To me, it is a matter of supply and demand. When the talent pool is larger than the demand for talent, there is a need to find a way to filter the hiring application results down to something that is manageable. A degree has become the defacto standard for doing that. It doesn't matter if you throw out great people with the bath water doing that, because you still have a ton of great people to choose from.

Web development, and software development in general, have been through a fairly lengthy period of demand outpacing supply, leaving many companies without the need to arbitrarily reduce their application result set. That gives them the ability to evaluate all applicants as the normally would, just without the arbitrary filter to start.

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#55

Post by randomdata »

jeffasinger wrote: post #52
nbouscal wrote: post #16

This is not necessarily a good thing for the web development field. This is how you end up with people with large gaps in their knowledge responsible for parts of your codebase. To be clear, it is entirely possible to be self-taught and learn everything you need to know. I'm self-taught, and I like to think I've filled in most of the gaps by now. I've also worked with a few self-taught people who make me feel like a…

I just had the experience of interviewing about 10 grad students from a computer science program that's relatively highly regarded (definitely not top 10, but most would associate CS with the school). Only one of the candidates was able to explain any meaningful difference between GET and POST in HTTP. I don't know that universities are places that are likely to impart this type of knowledge in their grads.

I have always understood that college was for learning about underlying theories, but not necessarily industry-specific tools. If someone picks up HTTP during that time, great, but it shouldn't come as an expectation. That is what community college is for.

Perhaps a better question would be: "The HTTP verb POST is non-idempotent. When must you use a POST request?"

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#56

Post by icatchcows »

adaml_623 wrote: post #4
scotth wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't actually. Take this quote -- > To say this occupation is attainable for anyone though is a bit of stretch. It still requires some math chops and long hours of practice. > "You have to be a self-starter to go along with this," Kenefick said. "In the beginning, it was literally all day and all night, day after day, I was practicing and building up my portfolio. I'm pretty sure it's more work than going to co…

Ironic that the quote "I'm pretty sure it's more work than going to college." is from somebody who only spent a few weeks at university. (Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with dropping out)

I would agree with the quote, learning a skill while going to college is very challenging. I found University to be great at teaching my how to learn and giving me the fundamentals, but I'm on my own if I want to learn specific skills.

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#57

Post by 3pt14159 »

jeffasinger wrote: post #52
nbouscal wrote: post #16

This is not necessarily a good thing for the web development field. This is how you end up with people with large gaps in their knowledge responsible for parts of your codebase. To be clear, it is entirely possible to be self-taught and learn everything you need to know. I'm self-taught, and I like to think I've filled in most of the gaps by now. I've also worked with a few self-taught people who make me feel like a…

I just had the experience of interviewing about 10 grad students from a computer science program that's relatively highly regarded (definitely not top 10, but most would associate CS with the school). Only one of the candidates was able to explain any meaningful difference between GET and POST in HTTP. I don't know that universities are places that are likely to impart this type of knowledge in their grads.

You need to do a better job pre-filtering candidates. You are not doing your company a service by letting down a bunch of people over and over.

I have a rule: Code samples or OSS contributions or it is an auto "no-interview". Even for first year co-op students. From the code it self you can usually judge competence. If the code samples pass most of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_smell then I bring 'em in for an interview. I have yet to meet someone that doesn't know what the difference between a GET and a POST. For me a bad interview is if someone doesn't know what types of things are found in the headers, or doesn't understand the basics of oAuth.

Before people come in here and start up with the "you are not mid-thirties with kids" BS, no I'm not. But I know plenty of people that are, and it isn't too hard to get 200 lines of code to someones inbox.

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#58

Post by icatchcows »

penland wrote: post #5
icatchcows wrote: post #2

While a degree isn't necessary to become a developer, this article makes it sound like the average person can pick up a "how-to" book and become an employable web developer in a weekend or two. If this is true, I'd worry about the quality of developers joining the workforce.

I think you overestimate the quality of developer in the outside, "non-hacker-news" world. Labor is always the biggest outlay management worries about; if they don't have technical experience, there are tons of small to medium sized companies that will hire someone at 20$ or 30$ an hour with no degree to bang out bad GWT or jQuery. In the enterprise ( or small enterprise ) world, when was the last time a web dev need…

You're probably right. I try to surround myself with other people who are passionate about what they do and are trying to become better developers.

Even if someone didn't have technical experience, banging out code at a small company could be the starting point, for someone who is driven, to develop their skills and attain that six figure position.

Re: Make $30 an hour, no bachelor's degree required

#60

Post by spankermonkey »

I'm studying software engineering and also working as a junior web developer. Realistically speaking I'd have to quit my job to be able to finish my school. The problem is, I view school as a waste of time. Teachers don't know about SQL injection and don't teach unit testing. I learn more efficiently on my own. It's scary how big gaps there'd be in my knowledge if I relied only on the stuff school taught me. The reason I applied to a developer position in the first place was boredom in school(and financial stress). At work I've been learning a lot more and IMO worked on more interesting projects than most of my class mates at their internships.

It's school or work for me but I fear that lacking a bachelor's degree means I can't advance to more challenging programming positions or that nobody would hire me outside of my current company.

Nothing would stop me from starting my own business tho.

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