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U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

computerworld.com

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Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#41

Post by mrgordon »

jlgreco wrote: post #40
nandemo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two related thoughts that always occur to me in these discussions: * Many (I wouldn't say most but at least a sizeable minority) American programmers and IT workers display reservations regarding the policy of issuing visas such as H1Bs for a large number of foreign workers, because it's perceived as unnecessary or perceived as catering purely to the interests of megacorps. I wonder, do those software developers else…

* It seems a lot of people on HN are favourable to policies allowing working from home. Most companies still don't have such policies, but I suspect that if telecommuting ever becomes commonplace (e.g. due to software development process or technological changes), it will depress salaries far more than the measly 60~80k H1Bs per year have ever done. For every H1B holder there are certainly many others who are skillfu…

It depends on the job. While I don't doubt that is true for a simple web development task, most programmers who live in states with poor economies and no tech jobs probably have not written service-oriented distributed systems on AWS that have handled Google/Amazon/Dropbox/insert-big-tech-company-here size loads reliably with fault tolerance etc. I can see how that knowledge will eventually become more common all over the world, but the companies in the Bay Area will be on to the next technologies and want senior people with 5+ years in SomeNewWebScaleDB and production experience with EvenMoreTrendyLanguage which is still likely to be less common outside of tech hubs.

We'll certainly tend towards more telecommuting and less emphasis on physical location though.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#42

Post by riggins »

ardit33 wrote: post #17

I think this has due to an expansion of entry level jobs. ie. Code/App Academy, people learning Ruby on Rails and going to entry level jobs. Since tools are getting better and better, there is an expansion on the lower level of engineering. They should have been measuring people with the same level of experience (e.g. 5 years or experience), and see how they stack up. My personal experience, and from what I have seen…

Code/App Academy, people learning Ruby on Rails and going to entry level jobs

I kind of doubt it's Code Academy.

This article as of Jan 2013 said Udacity (which IMO is more rigorous than Code Academy) has only placed 20 people and Coursera only a 'handful'.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732433920457817...

About 350 companies have signed up to access Udacity's job portal in recent months, though it has placed just about 20 students so far.

But the company (Coursera) matched only a handful of students in its months-long pilot

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#43

Post by nknighthb »

wtvanhest wrote: post #36
nknighthb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some such instances could conceivably be a simple market correction, too. Some localities particularly entangled by the housing bubble could have had inflated tech salaries as part of general market/cost-of-living forces.

This is unlikely since the housing market topped 5 years ago and may be actually coming out of the bottom finally (we won't know for a few more years) Another possibility is that there are companies hiring "software developers" for jobs that most HNers wouldn't find interesting because the level of software development is low and hence has a lower waged associated with the value generated.

> This is unlikely since the housing market topped 5 years ago and may be actually coming out of the bottom finally

No, that's exactly my point. Hiring would be occurring now because the economy is recovering from the recession, but at corrected wages that do not reflect an artificially bloated cost of living in particular localities.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#44

Post by ryguytilidie »

bermanoid wrote: post #7
hristov wrote: post #3

This does not necessarily mean that wages are falling. It could be that a lot of the new jobs created are "beginner" jobs with lower wages that pull the average down, but the existing jobs still pay what they used to or more.

Which, to be fair, the article points out right at the top: "There are multiple theories for the decline in pay, but a common one cited by analysts is simply that the new people being hired are paid less than those already on the job."

"new people being hired are paid less than those already on the job."

Is this surprising at all?

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#45

Post by bicx »

mkumm wrote: post #37

I wonder how much of the $2k decrease could be contributed to geography? I think we are seeing more opportunities for technical jobs throughout the US, lowering the percentage of developers that need to be paid a Silicon Valley wage.

I really wish they would weigh geographic location into their stats. I live in TN where around half that $99k average wage is the norm for CS grads, and that's considered a good salary. Cost of living is much lower here than in Silicon Valley, so it partially evens out. A country-wide average is really no help to anyone with such disparity.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#46

Post by nknighthb »

nandemo wrote: post #39
skylan_q wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because there is a shortage of X workers until wages hit the federally mandated minimum.

Two related thoughts that always occur to me in these discussions: * Many (I wouldn't say most but at least a sizeable minority) American programmers and IT workers display reservations regarding the policy of issuing visas such as H1Bs for a large number of foreign workers, because it's perceived as unnecessary or perceived as catering purely to the interests of megacorps. I wonder, do those software developers else…

I think you're overly focused on global economics.

H1B abuse presents local economic problems. Wages for programmers working in San Francisco are higher than wages for the same programmers in, say, Lexington, both are higher than China, and all are related to local cost of living.

If a company abuses H1Bs to import cheap programmers from China to San Francisco and keep paying them Chinese rates, San Francisco programmer wages are depressed and SF programmers are disadvantaged relative to the entire local San Francisco economy.

Note I keep saying "abuse". The problem people fear with H1Bs is that their nature opens them to abuse. Not abuse by the immigrant programmers, but abuse by the corporations employing them, which can use the conditions of the H1B program to essentially hold immigrant workers hostage in below-market-rate jobs.

I think you'll find that if you talk to programmers reasonably informed about the nature of H1B visas, most will have no general objection at all to programmers immigrating to the US from China, India, or anywhere else. Only to the particular circumstances of the H1B program, which break local market forces.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#47

Post by djb_hackernews »

nknighthb wrote: post #46
nandemo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two related thoughts that always occur to me in these discussions: * Many (I wouldn't say most but at least a sizeable minority) American programmers and IT workers display reservations regarding the policy of issuing visas such as H1Bs for a large number of foreign workers, because it's perceived as unnecessary or perceived as catering purely to the interests of megacorps. I wonder, do those software developers else…

I think you're overly focused on global economics. H1B abuse presents local economic problems. Wages for programmers working in San Francisco are higher than wages for the same programmers in, say, Lexington, both are higher than China, and all are related to local cost of living. If a company abuses H1Bs to import cheap programmers from China to San Francisco and keep paying them Chinese rates, San Francisco program…

This is something I have been thinking a lot about recently since I just started a new job at a well known software company. Of the 9 people on my team, I am one of 3 that is NOT working on an H1B visa. This ratio seems typical company wide, if I had to guess.

I think as a business it makes sense to take advantage of this loophole, but obviously as a developer my wages are being suppressed.

I say either get rid of the H1B program (it's obviously a price issue and not a talent issue) or modify it to give them a fast track to citizenship or some other status that allows them to change jobs.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#48

Post by gexla »

mkumm wrote: post #37

I wonder how much of the $2k decrease could be contributed to geography? I think we are seeing more opportunities for technical jobs throughout the US, lowering the percentage of developers that need to be paid a Silicon Valley wage.

I was wondering the same. You can't talk about average wages without adding location information in with those wages as that's a big part of it.

A good indicator of use usefulness of this info is that nobody can explain why these wages have dropped. Sounds like they need more info.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#49

Post by thedufer »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #44
bermanoid wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which, to be fair, the article points out right at the top: "There are multiple theories for the decline in pay, but a common one cited by analysts is simply that the new people being hired are paid less than those already on the job."

"new people being hired are paid less than those already on the job." Is this surprising at all?

I...hope not? The point is that a sudden influx of new workers can drive down the average salary, even if the salary distribution isn't changing. By "salary distribution" I mean the curve of salary vs experience/skill level.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#50

Post by elchief »

textminer wrote: post #27

Am I the only one driven crazy by reporting that states an ambiguous "average" for something asymmetric like salary, when the choice between median and mean as a measure of centrality makes all the difference in the world?

You are not alone, amigo.
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