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The Three Kinds of Laziness

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Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#101

Post by virtualwhys »

kinleyd wrote: post #94
virtualwhys wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practice to awakening odds are pretty poor. If you were to ask your fellow practitioners how many of them felt as if they fully grasped (experienced) the teacher's teaching, I'd be shocked if more than 1 out of 20 said yes. Add to that the fact that practice in the Buddhist world is almost always an ass kicker of the highest order (hello screwdriver in the knees), then one wonders why take it up in the first plac…

Saying that, I did meet someone who awakened without a teacher. I suggested that he attend a couple of sitting groups that I used to go to. After the Dharma talk/discussion at each group, without having said a word, both teachers came up to him and basically said, how on earth did you do that? That's an awesome story. I'm only scratching at the surface, and something tells me that it's going to take a lot longer than…

"That's an awesome story. I'm only scratching at the surface, and something tells me that it's going to take a lot longer than that, if ever, for me."

Hang on a second, there is no you, how could you not be awakened?

Then why practice? Good question, it must be that delusions are endless; otherwise, we'd be lazy in the most wonderful sense of the word (see Ramana Maharshi for example).

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#102

Post by WalterSear »

kinleyd wrote: post #99
WalterSear wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that were the case, Buddhism would lacking. But it isn't the heart of Buddhism.

In Buddhism "the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression", and indeed the entire range of human emotions, are themselves considered fabrications of the mind that are laid bare and exposed as such through the practice of meditation, mindfulness and rejection of ego. To me that pretty much qualifies as being at the heart though I certainly don't claim any solid expertise.

This position takes quite a reactionary view of mental health. If you have PTSD, it doesn't work like that. If you have schizophrenia, it doesn't work like that. If you have BPD, it doesn't work like that. If you have ADDHD, it doesn't work like that.

These are all known mental health issues, with physiological markers, but ultimately they are aspects of human mentality that are present in everyone.

So, to ignore these, and ignore the myriad other mental and environmental issues, and suggest that 'just do it' is actionable advice goes against the grain of much that is valuable in Bhuddism: namely mindfulness and the purposes of meditation. Essentially, it is telling people to achieve presence through force of will, instead of using insight to accommodate their mental situation: only the unencumbered can succeed.

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#103

Post by throwaway1980 »

kinleyd wrote: post #99
WalterSear wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that were the case, Buddhism would lacking. But it isn't the heart of Buddhism.

In Buddhism "the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression", and indeed the entire range of human emotions, are themselves considered fabrications of the mind that are laid bare and exposed as such through the practice of meditation, mindfulness and rejection of ego. To me that pretty much qualifies as being at the heart though I certainly don't claim any solid expertise.

You can't reject your ego, you can only detach from it. Egolessness and egofullness are two sides of the same coin. And fabrications of the mind, if you will, are all that there is. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Reality and illusion are the same thing. Buddhism is really trying to teach you to honor and understand your thoughts, emotions, and ego as fundamental parts of the human body you live in, not to destroy or be impervious to them. It's not about escaping from your life but living more fully within it. If somewhat is afraid, ask why? How does the experience of fear feel? Is it connected to other emotions? What thoughts accompany it? What experiences from childhood are connected?

What are loving kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity if not emotion?

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#104

Post by throwaway1980 »

WalterSear wrote: post #102
kinleyd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Buddhism "the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression", and indeed the entire range of human emotions, are themselves considered fabrications of the mind that are laid bare and exposed as such through the practice of meditation, mindfulness and rejection of ego. To me that pretty much qualifies as being at the heart though I certainly don't claim any solid expertise.

This position takes quite a reactionary view of mental health. If you have PTSD, it doesn't work like that. If you have schizophrenia, it doesn't work like that. If you have BPD, it doesn't work like that. If you have ADDHD, it doesn't work like that. These are all known mental health issues, with physiological markers, but ultimately they are aspects of human mentality that are present in everyone. So, to ignore the…

Yeah, be wary of anything that is basically code for "stop being such a crybaby".

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#105

Post by philwelch »

SatvikBeri wrote: post #100
hnalias7 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". That Rush quote seemed relevant. I do this often myself. I try to make educated decisions which means researching all my options. Eventually you end up with "analysis paralysis". Being overwhelmed with all the choices and variables and the "right choice" isn't always clear. I blame this somewhat on tv and movies that always have the epiphanic moment where t…

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". That Rush quote seemed relevant. Trivia: Rush were actually quoting Ayn Rand. It's entirely possible that the quote or at least the sentiment predates her too.

While the sentiment is possibly there, I haven't encountered Ayn Rand using those words specifically and I've read a fair amount of her work. Can you give a more specific citation? Otherwise I'm fairly certain it was an original lyric.

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#106

Post by qu4z-2 »

swayvil wrote: post #97
kinleyd wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, Buddhism is no different from Hinduism, Christism, Muhammadism or any other ism in that it cannot escape the additions to the core teachings. Errors in narration, translation and interpretation all contribute to giving one a good reason to take what is passed down with healthy skepticism. IMHO, the Buddhist recommendation to exercise this type of necessary skepticism is to try it out, to experience it. If your…

Luckily we in Buddhism have something better than mere teachings : Meditation. More educational than a billion wise words.

I'm fairly sure Christianity had this for most of its life as well, actually.

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#107

Post by qu4z-2 »

obviouslygreen wrote: post #45
hkmurakami wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't you say that that 'something' is an entirely personal choice?

You certainly could. But if that were their intention, it'd kind of defeat the purpose of suggesting that some things didn't qualify as "something."

I think the distinction is between "something" that you've chosen to do with your life and that you find fulfilling, and the "somethings" you just kind of end up falling back to, as a default without making a conscious decision.

So yeah, I don't think there's really anything that doesn't qualify as "something", the point is just that the "somethings" that you want to do and the "somethings" you end up doing are often not quite aligned, and you kind of know it in the back of your mind but don't end up doing anything about it. "Yeah, I've always wanted to see the world, but it's not really a good time for it right now, so I'll just finish this project, and finish paying off my loan, and then maybe I'll do it."

You kind of end up living in The Waiting Place from Oh The Places You'll Go. And no-one wants that.

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#108

Post by qu4z-2 »

jasonlotito wrote: post #61

The reason why quips like this are dangerous is that people will assume that because of who Garry Tan is, they'll take his word for it. Simply put, this is wrong. There are not three kinds of laziness. Better, it's wrong to assume that your laziness and inability to act is one of those three types mentioned. As someone who was recently diagnosed with ADHD and OCD, I can assure you, reflecting doesn't solve anything.…

I'd disagree that "reflect on death" is a meaningless platitude. It's a definite, actionable step. Whether it helps you or not is a different story, and really only you can find that out. In short, it's concrete advice, though whether good or bad I can't judge.

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#109

Post by qu4z-2 »

nsomaru wrote: post #25

I cannot recommend the book mentioned in this post enough for anyone interested in the intersection between science/spirituality. I found it challenged many assumptions held by my younger self who was a self-admitted atheist and believed in the ability of Science (in my limited understanding thereof) to explain everything. I'm not saying that all the arguments presented therein are correct, but I found them quite sui…

I think science can, with enough effort, predict most things. Whether it explains anything is an open topic of debate in my friend group.

Also, just FYI, that's a fairly famous quote that gets tossed around a lot. Although usually with "teacher" or "master" in place of Guru. (Does anyone else have a negative connotation with that word?) I assume your master was referencing it.

Re: The Three Kinds of Laziness

#110

Post by kinleyd »

WalterSear wrote: post #102
kinleyd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Buddhism "the very real issues of fear, discouragement and depression", and indeed the entire range of human emotions, are themselves considered fabrications of the mind that are laid bare and exposed as such through the practice of meditation, mindfulness and rejection of ego. To me that pretty much qualifies as being at the heart though I certainly don't claim any solid expertise.

This position takes quite a reactionary view of mental health. If you have PTSD, it doesn't work like that. If you have schizophrenia, it doesn't work like that. If you have BPD, it doesn't work like that. If you have ADDHD, it doesn't work like that. These are all known mental health issues, with physiological markers, but ultimately they are aspects of human mentality that are present in everyone. So, to ignore the…

Time to step back a bit and consider how we reached this stage of the discussion in the first place. The OP essentially quoted Matthieu Ricard's book, "The Monk and the Philosopher". It was all about Buddhism and without anything close to a "'snap out of it' ideology". Your initial comment thus came across more as Buddhism is a simplistic 'snap out of it' ideology, which is the point I sought to refute. I'm certainly not saying 'snap out of it' is the essence of Buddhism. So in a roundabout way, we agree more than we appear to. :)

Returning to your points on PTSD, schizophrenia, BPD and ADDHD, I can state quite positively that I've read no Buddhist texts so far that discuss these disorders, let alone prescribe Buddhism as the cure. So again, we are more in agreement than not, unless of course you believe that all fear, discouragement and depression amount to PTSD, schizophrenia, BPD and ADDHD (in which case I would have to level the round trip fallacy charge at you!).

However, personally I believe modern medicine is far from understanding properly any of these disorders, and the treatment for them - mainly drugs - is an unhappy one even if that's all we have.

At the same time I also believe that there is a tendency to find the quick fix (what better than a drug) or a solution outside of ourselves (psychotherapy). Not every condition requires this sort of intervention, but there is a very strong trend and tendency to provide it and that's a pity.

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