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Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

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Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#61

At the University of Waterloo where I went we had a co-op program where people would get (usually) reasonably well paid internships. We switched between work and school every 4 months, so when you were done you had a 4-year degree and 2 years of work experience. This both drastically increased the value of the degree—it was very common to end up getting a job in one of the places you did a co-op term—and gave you som…

I was a manager at a major semiconductor company for long time.

I personally hired boatloads of interns out of Waterloo. On the whole, they were a great bunch. Many of the best ones we converted to full-time hires.

I agree it was a great program for both parties.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#62
post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

do yourself a favor and major in something with a lot of girls in it. learn what makes them tick. TRUST ME ON THIS ONE.

you will never, ever again be in the situation of having so many females vying for your attention. if you squander it, you will regret it.

teach yourself computer science and get a degree in something else like psychology or biology or something.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#63
post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

jaxbot, I was a hiring manager at a major Silicon Valley semiconductor company for many years before I retired.

Unfortunately, the CS degree really does open doors. If you're good, you can skip the degree. But you must be really good. Honestly, the best engineer I worked with in my whole career (and who was on my staff) was a high-school dropout. But he was incredibly great, and devoured books on languages and software engineering. He is the kind of guy that would have a relevant input about "Is Haskell or Lisp a better language?"

But not having a degree did limit his career. He always had work because everyone loved him and knew he was brilliant and humble. But doors that might have been open to him were closed. Every choice in life has a cost.

There really is some benefit to doing the degree. It will force you to dig into some areas that you might not have dug into manually. Algorithms, data structures, discrete math, linear algebra, calculus, compilers, languages, computer architecture, etc. You need all that stuff to be a great SW engineer.

My advise to you is to get the degree but treat it as your "day job." Then, do what you're really passionate about. Take grad level courses, or just do random stuff that you think is cool and put it in github.

I interviewed thousands of new college grads. About 75% of them absolutely suck. The guys who I made offers to were almost always guys who did stuff on their own. Right before I retired, the last guy I made a job offer to showed me an app he had written for his iphone that simulated how particles diffuse in a solvent, and his resume showed a link to the code that he wrote.

His GPA was only a 3.5. But I totally got him: he was great because he had a passion for digging into stuff, and not just for jumping through professors' hoops.

In general, the correlation I found between GPA and competence was this:

Obviously, I'm generalize and there are always exceptions. But if you interview thousands of candidates you see the trend.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#64
post #42
post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

Actually, you're in a position to get more out of university than most of your peers. So let's say you're going for a CS degree, and you already know a lot of programming. Cool. Ignore the intro programming classes and take higher-level courses. Treat prerequisites as suggestions, and don't be able to ask for permission (if needed) to skip courses or take grad courses. Grad-level cryptography, machine learning, PL th…

This is good advice.

If CS intrigues you, sign up for the most advanced courses you can handle. Also, be sure not to shortchange yourself when it comes to a foundation. Lots of people can "write code" without a good understanding of datastructures and algorithms. Get as much there as you can, as it only pays dividends as you grow your software skills.

Another advantage of having a headstart is you can diversify your education. I'd recommend some electrical engineering / hardware classes to complement software; understanding memory access patterns, CPU caches, multiple cores, busses, interrupts, and basic circuits are all useful things to have in your back pocket.

Be curious! Be proactive! Reach out to professors you like or that other students rave about. Trust me, they are flattered when students take an interest in them and their work. Build those relationships as they can lead to:

- independent projects in a mentor/mentee capacity

- research opportunities

- internships

- teaching assistant opportunities (I got paid $15 / hour to assist students with assignments. I once did this for a class I was taking alongside them because the prof needed help and he trusted me and my skills.)

A relationship with a professor is such a good idea I'd say it's essential. You will one day need a letter of reference for something, and you want it to come from faculty who knows you, likes you, knows your interest, etc and can write glowingly and convincingly of your skills and personality. Too many people I knew hit up someone they took a class from and got an A in, and it was a superficial and shallow thing that didn't really get them that far.

I'll stop here, but feel free to message me for more if interested.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#65
post #16

I really have little sympathy for somebody that attends an out of state or private school and racks up $100K in college debt getting a sociology degree. My son just finished up his freshman year as a history major. However, he is going to the perfectly good public school located 15 minutes from home, and living at home. It's costing me $5000 a semester in tuition, which isn't chump change, but isn't going to bankrupt…

If your child goes for 4 years at 2 semesters a year, you will be spending $40k on tuition. Your child is almost certain to move out before then, so there will be an increase in that for rent. There is also food cost.

A LOT of families can't drop that kind of money for one child, let alone several if they have more than 1 kid. The availability of loans means that most students will take on debt to get that degree to some extent. When you are paying what seems to be a huge sum of money, a lot of people get taken in by the false premises and marketing that expensive or ivy league schools provide and get caught up in trying to get that school.

Overall this situation is totally unsustainable and harms more people that it helps. Blaming folks for not having what you have or doing what you did is ridiculous, your life isn't a template for everyone elses needs.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#66
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually are as good as you say you are, then don't go. Spend the time getting real work experience.

I second this. Take the first professional job you can get (and you can start freelancing and putting stuff on github to help you get that job), you can use that to bounce into a higher paying job after a year or two. Once you're inside the industry people won't bother looking at your piece of paper or lack thereof. I spent 3 years at University doing a completely non software related degree, gave it up, was doing fe…

After reading some of the insightful comments above, I'd like to add that it would be good to round out your skill set beyond web development. Learn C, it will teach you great things. Learn Linux (and read the source code), you'll learn a lot about how complex systems work.

If you do go down the path of university, then make sure you stray outside what they teach. Challenge yourself, because that's how you improve, and you'll also differentiate yourself when someone is looking to hire you.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#67
post #46

I get that paying for your education is pretty bad, but as someone who is enjoying free bachelor level education in Finland I can tell that the amount of quality teachers is pretty low, our small campus has maybe 4 teachers I'd consider competent. I'm also the kind of guy who'd enjoy extracurricular clubs, but sadly out of the few hundred students at our campus total of 3 of us (me included) are interested in club ac…

Which college in Finland are you at? Isn't the University of Helsinki among the best in the world? (just curious)

I'm actually attending HAMK University of Applied Sciences which only produces engineers for different fields.

I'm sure the "bigger players" like Aalto Univeristy or University of Turku are of higher quality, but I can't judge since I've never attended neither.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#68
post #49

This article is completely wrong. The basic claim of the article is that according to the College Board, the amount students actually spend to attend college has increased 300% over the last 30 years. Is this actual true? College Board does track the amount students spend, they call this statistic net sticker price -- that is, sticker price minus all grants, scholarships, and tax credits. However, they only track net…

The only problem with the article is overly emphasizing the "you are being scammed" angle. The article actually covers it from two angles, and the "net sticker price" is only the right metric for one of them (an individual student evaluating the ROI of their own personal education). Looking at the system as a whole, average net sticker price is the wrong metric. That's hiding real costs in the system. "Why is there $…

Definitely something brewing…

I posted these a while back on another thread, but these seem highly relevant to getting some insight to where the demand from state/federal government is going.

The Atlantic did a piece on decrease in government funding trends back in january: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-38-s...

And Think Progress shows some stats on another indicator of decrease in government funding trends (tuition hikes): http://thinkprogress.org/education/2013/03/19/1741231/states...

The Kansas City Fed also did a report on a periphery indicator of decrease in government funding trends (student loan defaults) and more: http://www.kansascityfed.org/publicat/reswkpap/pdf/rwp%2012-...

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#69
post #16

I really have little sympathy for somebody that attends an out of state or private school and racks up $100K in college debt getting a sociology degree. My son just finished up his freshman year as a history major. However, he is going to the perfectly good public school located 15 minutes from home, and living at home. It's costing me $5000 a semester in tuition, which isn't chump change, but isn't going to bankrupt…

You have little sympathy? So for someone who doesn't live near a university, doesn't have daddy pay his tuition for him and provide free housing and food, it's just tough luck? Like another commenter said, that's $40k in tuition, probably another $40k for housing, food and other expenses during that period of time. Your attitude is not productive, and sounds to me like the typical "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#70
post #44

This article is completely wrong. The basic claim of the article is that according to the College Board, the amount students actually spend to attend college has increased 300% over the last 30 years. Is this actual true? College Board does track the amount students spend, they call this statistic net sticker price -- that is, sticker price minus all grants, scholarships, and tax credits. However, they only track net…

Quite. Furthermore... From the article: "Consider this: You have just paid about three times as much for your degree as did someone graduating 30 years ago. That’s in constant dollars — in other words, after accounting for inflation. There is no evidence that you have received a degree three times as good. " The assumption is that you would expect the cost of higher education to track the CPI. As a good that we get t…

> I thought the WSJ was supposed to get these kind of things right

Not since NewsCorp took the reigns

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