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Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

economist.com

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Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#41

Post by mc-lovin »

raymondduke wrote: post #36

Hi. Longshoreman here. I work around at the busiest port(s) in the USA and the 5th busiest port(s) in the world. Driving through and working around the 100,000's containers at the harbor never gets old even after working there for 7 years. There are some interesting things I can say about containers after working with them up close: • Half of the containers we export are empties. The way the process works is we get a…

What do you think are the main potential areas for improvement in the field? Is there potential for more automation?

It sounds like a fascinating job, those cranes look really cool.

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#42

Post by raymondduke »

mc-lovin wrote: post #41
raymondduke wrote: post #36

Hi. Longshoreman here. I work around at the busiest port(s) in the USA and the 5th busiest port(s) in the world. Driving through and working around the 100,000's containers at the harbor never gets old even after working there for 7 years. There are some interesting things I can say about containers after working with them up close: • Half of the containers we export are empties. The way the process works is we get a…

What do you think are the main potential areas for improvement in the field? Is there potential for more automation? It sounds like a fascinating job, those cranes look really cool.

Automation is coming, without a doubt. The problem right now is implementation. A lot of the terminals have had computer screens with GPS that either don't work or are way too faulty. The terminal I worked at today ordered several new automated cranes this year (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdMMDjPPILE) but they didn't have the power to support them; so now they are digging up the pavement in order to supply more power. It's a giant mess.

Main improvements would be a better implementation, obviously, but also a better line of communication between companies and workers. I wrote a piece of Medium (https://medium.com/labor-related/188796b758d) about how they hired 18,000 new workers in the late 90's; which would normally be a very good thing but 80% of those workers are still on temp status (including me). Temp status (i.e., a Casual) doesn't earn a pension, get benefits, or have any of the other perks of a regular worker. I might be getting off-topic a little here, but an improvement to the ports would include a better line of communication between workers and companies instead of trying to turn the port into a giant conveyor belt. I'm not so skeptical to think that a good paying blue collar job will exist forever, but there is an extreme level of efficiency that happens when you put human minds behind big tasks instead of leaving it up to computers.

Here is another panoramic pic of when I worked rails: http://i.imgur.com/V1Sficm.jpg. Those giant four legged things move back and forth over the wells. The machine I was in moves along side the tracks and allows you to hop on and off the containers to take cones on or off.

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#43

Post by raymondduke »

ww520 wrote: post #37
raymondduke wrote: post #36

Hi. Longshoreman here. I work around at the busiest port(s) in the USA and the 5th busiest port(s) in the world. Driving through and working around the 100,000's containers at the harbor never gets old even after working there for 7 years. There are some interesting things I can say about containers after working with them up close: • Half of the containers we export are empties. The way the process works is we get a…

I've heard longshoreman make excellent money, and there's a long wait list of people to get into the trade. What's the pay like?

I get this alot. The truth is that longshoremen do have the potential to make a decent amount of money -- but in reality, only a small % of them do.

Pay starts off in the lower 20's and get get as high as 40-45 depending on the job you get and what shift you work; nights are 1.3 and weekends are 1.5, and some jobs have a 15% or 25% bonus. This sounds like a decent amount of $, but 3/4ths of the longshoremen work only 1 day a week on average. In 2008, we (Casuals) worked about 1 day every 4 months. I've heard of casuals making 90k in the 1990's, but I don't think that'll ever happen again.

Regulars, on the other hand, make a good amount of money. On average, the probably make 100k, and if you are a boss or a crane driver, close to 150k. Being a boss, regular, or crane driver takes a lot of time; especially the way things have been going with our economy lately. Before it would take maybe 15-20 years, and now, it's more like 20-30.

When I write this, it makes me want to give up on the job because its long term potential is dwindling. But like I mentioned, I love the culture and what it feels like working at the port; it also allows me a lot of freedom to work on my personal projects (shameless plug: I am working on a commenting platform that'll let you use audio comments). The pay right now is decent; I can earn 200-300 for working one day a week, and have the rest of the week for myself. However, getting a job for the week is sometimes annoying; I have to stand around at a hiring hall for hours - or sometimes, days - to work a shift.

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#44

Post by wdr1 »

> Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

Why did you editorialize the title?

The Economist article doesn't say that. It does state "In fact, new research suggests that the container has been more of a driver of globalisation than all trade agreements in the past 50 years taken together."

Although they do also state it's difficult to quantify & that "containerisation" seems to, in turn, drive freer trade.

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#45

Post by thaumasiotes »

No1 wrote: post #28
olefoo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like TCP/IP, HTTP and a plethora of other internet standards; it would have not been adopted had anyone maintained an active claim of ownership. The way to make money off a standard is to sell it's complements ( think Cisco or SUN selling equipment that works with TCP/IP and ethernet ) not to attempt to charge for use of the standard.

"The way to make money off a standard is to sell it's complements" That seems to be how things went. Tantlinger created over 70 patents related to transportation in his lifetime. Sea-Land, his employer, sold containerized shipping services. I doubt there were any regrets about dropping the patent. Malcom McLean, owner of Sea-Land, did pretty well for himself: [R.J.] Reynolds agreed in January 1969 to buy Sea-Land for…

If I remember right, he hated serving on the board, left to found a rival container-shipping company, and ran it into the ground. (Not to knock Malcom McLean! But I think it makes the story even more interesting.)

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#46

Post by pg »

wdr1 wrote: post #44

> Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade Why did you editorialize the title? The Economist article doesn't say that. It does state "In fact, new research suggests that the container has been more of a driver of globalisation than all trade agreements in the past 50 years taken together." Although they do also state it's difficult to quantify & that "containerisation" seems to, in turn,…

That's the subtitle of the article, verbatim.

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#47

Post by mc-lovin »

raymondduke wrote: post #42
mc-lovin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think are the main potential areas for improvement in the field? Is there potential for more automation? It sounds like a fascinating job, those cranes look really cool.

Automation is coming, without a doubt. The problem right now is implementation. A lot of the terminals have had computer screens with GPS that either don't work or are way too faulty. The terminal I worked at today ordered several new automated cranes this year (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdMMDjPPILE ) but they didn't have the power to support them; so now they are digging up the pavement in order to suppl…

Could you shed some light on the strange employment structure in your industry?

My impression is that unions in this industry are a combination of the bad (artificially restricting the supply of labor, to the benefit of union members, and the detriment of non members) and good (giving workers to power to maintain safety standards, and making sure that workers feel they can trust their fellow workers).

What limits communication? Is it the fact that a lot of the workers are temp workers, or is it unrelated?

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#48

Post by kyllo »

raymondduke wrote: post #42
mc-lovin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think are the main potential areas for improvement in the field? Is there potential for more automation? It sounds like a fascinating job, those cranes look really cool.

Automation is coming, without a doubt. The problem right now is implementation. A lot of the terminals have had computer screens with GPS that either don't work or are way too faulty. The terminal I worked at today ordered several new automated cranes this year (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdMMDjPPILE ) but they didn't have the power to support them; so now they are digging up the pavement in order to suppl…

Hey. I worked at a major steamship line for five years. The coolest part was watching the ships come into the terminal and get worked by the longshoremen.

It's still a dangerous job though. Someone gets badly hurt or killed at the port here once every year or two.

Ever heard of Euromax in the Netherlands? Not a single human on the docks there most of the time. The entire terminal is robotic now. Just a few engineers up in a control tower, to make sure the computers keep running. That won't happen in the US for a long time, though. The ILA and ILWU have a lot of political power.

Re: Containers have been more important for globalisation than freer trade

#50

Post by raymondduke »

kyllo wrote: post #48
raymondduke wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automation is coming, without a doubt. The problem right now is implementation. A lot of the terminals have had computer screens with GPS that either don't work or are way too faulty. The terminal I worked at today ordered several new automated cranes this year (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdMMDjPPILE ) but they didn't have the power to support them; so now they are digging up the pavement in order to suppl…

Hey. I worked at a major steamship line for five years. The coolest part was watching the ships come into the terminal and get worked by the longshoremen. It's still a dangerous job though. Someone gets badly hurt or killed at the port here once every year or two. Ever heard of Euromax in the Netherlands? Not a single human on the docks there most of the time. The entire terminal is robotic now. Just a few engineers…

I have heard of fully automated ports, but not Euromax in particular.

I suppose the ILWU and ILA do have a lot of political power when you compare them to other ports. But from my perspective, we are losing more and more ground each day. Since a majority of the workers are temps who can't get involved with meetings and other "official bidness", then I don't know who will take the reigns 10-20 years from now.

Did you keep up to date with what happened in Hong Kong?

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