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Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

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Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#11
I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and know well, to take classes on subjects somewhat connected to what I'll do in a future career, to get a job full of incompetent idiots who get the same paper as me.

I'd appreciate some critiques on my thinking process

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#12
30-40k of debt seems a lot less than many people I have known are in with degrees that will never be meaningful to employers. Parents need to adjust for the world as it is and teach their kids that degrees can be profitable to them in the right fields and without debt. I've known several people who had 100k+ worth of college debt and very little to actually show for it.

The debt is the real problem here. If you have a degree that isn't going to do anything for you then that's bad but with debt everything is so much worse. Debt makes any problem you have so much worse.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#13
"You have just paid about three times as much for your degree as did someone graduating 30 years ago."

Aren't more people going to college these days than people were 30 years ago? The "conspiracy" doesn't exist, the fetishizing of higher education happened in the open. It is a tragedy that a great system of learning (liberal education) has been so watered down and over-sold.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#14
post #4

You won't get that free education at Cambridge any more; it'll set you back £9000 in tuition fees every year, because successive British governments deliberately copied the US system. It is to weep ...

Not to mention that the government has changed the interest rates[1] on loans for courses starting in '12. It's still lower than the interest rates that banks offer, but it's edging pretty close.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/student-finance/repayments

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#15
It's better to understand this as an extortion dynamic than a single conspiracy.

Mafia is a good analogy. There is no "Mafia" (except for werewolves, if anyone gets the allusion). There are various crime families and connections between them are loose to nonexistent. "Mafia" is a term people make up to describe what are actually a heterogeneous set of people who just happen to compete in such a way that they get the benefits and the externalities fall out on society (just like an upper class).

Conspiracy theories are an attractive proposition because you can "blow up the room where they meet". If only it were that simple. The reality is that the types of people who are in power are naturally extortionist-- it's probably genetic-- and such people are naturally drawn to the power they gain in numbers, but too individually arrogant and selfish to form comic-book "Conspiracies" (cf. "The Empire" in mid-90s console RPGs). In reality, lower-case-c conspiracies exist all over the place, but there's no "one room where they meet".

Ok, now onto the expensiveness of college and (as mentioned) urban real estate, it's an extortion economy. It's a protection racket. Colleges are (at least in theory) able to protect people from falling to the bottom, and that's the service they sell these days. As the U.S. middle class shuts down, demand for the few remaining seats becomes nearly infinite. That's why college tuitions are crossing the $50,000 barrier and rents are skyrocketing in the few locations where it's possible for a young person to start a career. The U.S. middle class is being "obsoleted" and people, in panic, are clinging to the few successful institutions (top universities, star cities) that appear high enough to survive the flood.

You can view this as a generation getting "screwed" but I see it as a mix of good and bad. We also live in a time when participation in technology is becoming available to the masses. This really is the best and worst of times. We could win big and change history, or we could be the worst loser generation the world has seen in hundreds of years. It's still not determined yet.

I look at the upper classes and see insecurity and weakness. Sure, they're parasitic and mostly evil, but they also are afraid of something. I'm not sure what yet. But a lot of their parasitic hyperconsumption is them throwing a huge party before the curtain drops on them.

I still believe in Avenue 1. Avenue 1 is that we level up on technology and education and make a better world and just outperform these assholes. We build better companies and institutions and allow them to decline peacefully. (Avenue 2 is a violent, worldwide revolution against the current global elite that will probably kill ~4 million before it concludes.) We don't have to fight them directly; we just build things that are superior to what they can come up with, and gradually draw power through positive means. Avenue 1 means we, as a generation, build something like what Silicon Valley was before it became VC-istan.

I see a lot of opportunity. Sure, those in our generation who hoped to have the easy route to corporate executive sinecures have lost that opportunity forever; but Avenue 1 is a real possibility.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#16
I really have little sympathy for somebody that attends an out of state or private school and racks up $100K in college debt getting a sociology degree. My son just finished up his freshman year as a history major. However, he is going to the perfectly good public school located 15 minutes from home, and living at home. It's costing me $5000 a semester in tuition, which isn't chump change, but isn't going to bankrupt me either. If he had to take on some debt to get his degree it would be manageable. We could have made it cheaper still by having him spend the first two years in community college. College costs are out of control in the US, but that doesn't mean we have to blindly pay them.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#17
Attending a "prestigious," college usually means that you NEED to make it. I use to pressure my own self into a mental state that, "I need to achieve in life... a career, a business, something that shows my valor, my intellect."

A college degree, I believe, will get you further in a career (or at least an interview),...but getting the interview, that's what college is for! I don't believe that BS saying "it's not what you know, it's who you know." What you know, is equally important as to who you know, because if you don't know diddly squat, who you know will laugh you away.

To clear up any presumptions...I'm a college dropout that passed on going to SFSU, because I didn't want to go back to the bay area, but if I could change it...hmmm college degree or criminal record. (easy choice)

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#18
This article is completely wrong. The basic claim of the article is that according to the College Board, the amount students actually spend to attend college has increased 300% over the last 30 years. Is this actual true?

College Board does track the amount students spend, they call this statistic net sticker price -- that is, sticker price minus all grants, scholarships, and tax credits. However, they only track net sticker price back to 1990.

The figure that this article is citing is sticker price, which isn't the amount that students spend, as the article claims, but rather it's just the list price. (This guy is basically quoting the fake price that's crossed out on Amazon that no one actually pays so that they can trick you into thinking you're saving money.) Here is the difference, with both statistics carried as far back as they go from the College Board data:

"The average sticker price for yearly tuition and required fees (not including room and board) at private non-profit 4-year institutions increased from $10,378 in 1972-73 (2012 dollars) to $29,056 in 2012-13. At public institutions the cost increased from $2,225 to $8,655.

The net yearly tuition and required fees (sticker price minus total grant aid and tax benefits) at public 4-year colleges for in-state residents increased from $1,840 in 1990-91 (2012 dollars) to $2,910 in 2012-13 . At private non-profit institutions the net price increased from $11,060 in 1990-91 to $13,380 in 2012-13."

Sources: CollegeBoard - http://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/cp-2012-t... - Tuition and Fee and Room and Board Charges over Time in 2012 Dollars, 1972-73 through 2012-13, Selected Years

http://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/cp-2012-t... - Table 7 - Average Net Price for Full-Time Students over Time — Public Institutions

http://trends.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/cp-2012-t... - Table 8 - Average Net Price for Full-Time Students over Time — Private Institutions

This isn't to say that it's impossible that the net sticker price has increased by 300% -- it may have, or may not have, there's no way to know. But the College Board data certainly doesn't doesn't show this, which is the claim the author is making.

Similarly, the author claims that the average student this year at a private college spent $29,000 on their education. This is also a blatant lie. As you can see from the actual College Board data, which this guy claims is his source, the real figure there is $13,380. And it's not like this guy doesn't know the difference, since the data for both is on the same page -- this entire article is just a bunch of blatant lies designed to promote whatever his bullshit agenda is.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#19
post #11

I'm class of '13 for grade school, entering college this fall at a state university. I've been programming since I was 8, and from what I can tell, my self-teaching has put me at a level above people fresh out of school with a flashy degree that says "hire me." I'm not good with words, but my point is this. I find it terribly concerning that I'm paying $50k to go to a school to learn something I already know, and kno…

If you actually are as good as you say you are, then don't go. Spend the time getting real work experience.

Re: Dear Class of ’13: You’ve been scammed

#20
post #6

Australia is similar in the regard, except the Federal government covers part of the full course cost, the rest being covered by a CPI indexed loan (HECS) which needs to be paid back once employment income exceeds $38k per year (taken from tax refunds -- we have tax deducted every payday). That said, a typical university student will accumulate $9000 a year of HECS debt. And yet Universities continue to cry poor, cut…

http://deltacostproject.org/resources/pdf/trends_in_spending... Page 24: > In all institutional groupings—public and private—tuition prices increased faster than education and general spending per student. This suggests that both public and private institutions are becoming more dependent on tuition as a source of general revenue—not just to pay for education and related expenses, but as a general subsidy for all fun…

Government funding for student places has increased slightly over 10 years, and full fee income (private places) has increased massively.

See page 124: http://www.unimelb.edu.au/publications/docs/2012-annual-repo...

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