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Where Is .Net Headed?

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Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#91

Post by moron4hire »

cookiecaper wrote: post #74
moron4hire wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it missing that you are missing? Mono is pretty damn complete. The stuff I've found it to be missing are very Windows-centric stuff and wouldn't fit in a Unix environment anyway.

WPF is the replacement of WinForms. Many desktop apps designed by conventional .NET developers in the timeframe between the release of Vista, and probably many now despite MS's deprecation, use WPF as a base library. It's not something you can just easily replace, and Mono does not implement it. Microsoft is using the same business tactics that they've employed since the PC wars in the 90s, since they hit critical ma…

That's funny. I've been a .NET developer since it's been a thing. I don't know anyone doing WPF. That's kind of why it's deprecated.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#92

Post by moron4hire »

ilaksh wrote: post #38
ComputerGuru wrote: post #33

Regardless of where .NET is headed, C# the language (which is an entirely separate beast) has, in my humble opinion, become the most damn awesome all-around language. It's got all the awesome features most of which are very elegantly implemented and accessible in a very streamlined fashion. Obviously if you hate C-syntax, C# isn't going to win any brownie points, but in terms of sheer power and flexibility, C# 5.0 st…

Start with the name, ".NET". What were they referring to when they chose that name very carefully? They were referring to the web. C# 5.0? Take a look at this example code from the MSDN blog which is "showing off" the new features of C# 5.0. (It was formatted this way with no indentation on the blog). This example, not by coincidence, demonstrates how .NET interfaces with the web. private async void btnTest_Click(obj…

I don't think you know enough about .NET, C#, or even web applications in general, to effectively comment on this subject.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#93

Post by eduardordm »

orangethirty wrote: post #89
eduardordm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You couldn't buy the VS licenses + SQL Server + Windows Server with the money YCombinator provides you. So, yes, most microsoft products are incredibly damaging for a startup.

So, yes, most microsoft products are incredibly damaging for a startup. Not every startup has to work with the small amount YC hands out. I know of a fair amount of startups using an MS stack, and they are doing very well. Of course, they are not SV cool, but they are making good money. You should sit back and analyze what you just said, because it is a pretty strange point to make.

My current company uses extensively .NET and I have almost a decade of experience working with it at my last employer, where I was also responsible for choosing and buying such products.

In my last employer (government), we didn't choose .NET, microsoft won the contracts. In the last update when I still worked there, we spent 250k USD to update our programmers VS to 2010 + windows 7. (I wonder if they will now update again). SQL Server prices are similar to oracle's with similar features.

In my startup (not a startup anymore) I had to spend 40k just to get the environment needed for a project (involving telephony) the only reason we had to use .NET was because the hardware manufacturer only provided driver+tooling for windows and some components were exclusively for .NET. Because we mostly use linux and macs, we also had to buy windows licenses. In my country, a Windows 8 license cost almost 2x the minimum wage.

We happened to have a discussion if we should give up or not a specific product because of the microsoft taxation on our business. The only reason we decided to keep using .NET is the cheap labor and the lack of hardware suppliers willing to provide us drivers and tools for linux.

So yes, microsoft damages not only startups, but companies in general.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#94

Post by cookiecaper »

moron4hire wrote: post #91
cookiecaper wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WPF is the replacement of WinForms. Many desktop apps designed by conventional .NET developers in the timeframe between the release of Vista, and probably many now despite MS's deprecation, use WPF as a base library. It's not something you can just easily replace, and Mono does not implement it. Microsoft is using the same business tactics that they've employed since the PC wars in the 90s, since they hit critical ma…

That's funny. I've been a .NET developer since it's been a thing. I don't know anyone doing WPF. That's kind of why it's deprecated.

I work at a .NET shop right now and they have multiple major components written in WPF. I've seen WPF listed as a req in several local job listings. So, now you at least know of someone "doing" WPF.

One of my longer-term goals is to move us to a stack that's entirely Mono-compatible, but that will take a while. The whole company runs on WPF.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#95

Post by cookiecaper »

cmircea wrote: post #85
cookiecaper wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WPF is the replacement of WinForms. Many desktop apps designed by conventional .NET developers in the timeframe between the release of Vista, and probably many now despite MS's deprecation, use WPF as a base library. It's not something you can just easily replace, and Mono does not implement it. Microsoft is using the same business tactics that they've employed since the PC wars in the 90s, since they hit critical ma…

It's not as if WPF was the only way to make UIs for apps.

But it was the primary, endorsed way for several years. WinForms was deprecated, and WPF was the new thing you were supposed to use.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#96

Post by cookiecaper »

CloudNine wrote: post #77
cookiecaper wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Thanks for doing exactly what the OP requested commenters NOT to do. I countered jussij's perspective, equally posted without "links or references" (which don't necessarily make something valid, fyi), with my own. I didn't reply to the parent post that said "please don't say anything mean about .NET unless you can prove it". That poster is not the internet police, we are free to continue to speculate and navel-gaze…

>I countered jussij's perspective, equally posted without "links or references" No, he posted a publicly verifiable figure which is audited by the SEC and punishable with heavy penalties for faking, 11% increase of revenue in the quarter, up from last years quarter, whereas you continue the trend of the thousand other HN comments which say .NET is dying because they personally don't know of a company using it. How ma…

He posted his interpretation of a cherry-picked accounting figure. I told him why that interpretation may not be valid. It's a fair discussion point.

>Keep up the navel gazing.

Thanks, I will. I enjoy sharing opinions and interpretations and getting feedback on these. I don't find discussion fora where all of our posts need bibliographies very exciting in general.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#97

Post by orangethirty »

eduardordm wrote: post #93
orangethirty wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, yes, most microsoft products are incredibly damaging for a startup. Not every startup has to work with the small amount YC hands out. I know of a fair amount of startups using an MS stack, and they are doing very well. Of course, they are not SV cool, but they are making good money. You should sit back and analyze what you just said, because it is a pretty strange point to make.

My current company uses extensively .NET and I have almost a decade of experience working with it at my last employer, where I was also responsible for choosing and buying such products. In my last employer (government), we didn't choose .NET, microsoft won the contracts. In the last update when I still worked there, we spent 250k USD to update our programmers VS to 2010 + windows 7. (I wonder if they will now update…

Would you say that Oracle, and IBM also damage companies?

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#98

Post by roc »

jussij wrote: post #68
roc wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those numbers don't necessarily mean anyone is making a conscious decision to buy in. they could simply mean the installed base needs 11% more server licensing by dollar to scale/maintain their existing solutions.

So there are all these customers that hate the Microsoft toolchain and also know they are getting shafted by Microsoft. In fact the customers hate Microsoft so much they decided to pay Microsoft an extra 11% bonus this year (and will probably pay another 11% bonus next year), even though they have all these free toolchain alternatives that they could be using.

Considering people have close to zero control over how Microsoft licenses, say, SQL Server? Yes.

And I never said they hated MS. I just said that increased revenue doesn't necessarily mean anyone is consciously buying in. Upgrading the old Exchange Server and adding another Domain Controller makes MS more money but for the IT department, the decision is simply "keep what we have under support and updated".

If you want to gauge how happy IT is with MS, you need to look at what they're choosing for brand new projects.

My anecdotal experience is that (happily or not) MS shops continue to choose MS. And small shops that couldn't afford MS anyway continue to not choose MS.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#99

Post by eduardordm »

orangethirty wrote: post #97
eduardordm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current company uses extensively .NET and I have almost a decade of experience working with it at my last employer, where I was also responsible for choosing and buying such products. In my last employer (government), we didn't choose .NET, microsoft won the contracts. In the last update when I still worked there, we spent 250k USD to update our programmers VS to 2010 + windows 7. (I wonder if they will now update…

Would you say that Oracle, and IBM also damage companies?

I don't know much about IBM products but I'm a heavy Oracle DB user in the process of migrating to Postgres due to simple problems, cost not being one of them. In fact, you will see a lot of users still using very old Oracle versions and getting full support from oracle.

Oracle (DB product) is the wrong choice for most startups, I actually wrote a post about that some time ago: http://eduardo.intermeta.com.br/posts/2013/2/1/this-is-why-y...

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#100

Post by orangethirty »

eduardordm wrote: post #99
orangethirty wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that Oracle, and IBM also damage companies?

I don't know much about IBM products but I'm a heavy Oracle DB user in the process of migrating to Postgres due to simple problems, cost not being one of them. In fact, you will see a lot of users still using very old Oracle versions and getting full support from oracle. Oracle (DB product) is the wrong choice for most startups, I actually wrote a post about that some time ago: http://eduardo.intermeta.com.br/posts/2…

I'm curious as to what the cost threshold is (in your opinion). This is good data to understand. May you share more?
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