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Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

googlecloudplatform.blogspot.com

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Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#131

Post by jtreminio »

astrodust wrote: post #127
jtreminio wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because quality projects like symphony Symfony 2 does not fit into his works view of php.

If Symfony is so amazing, why does nobody use it? I mean nobody in the almost literal sense. Stack Overflow serves as a rough barometer of popularity and either Symfony users have no questions, use another support platform, or they don't make up a significant population. The #1 problem with the PHP community is it's complete anarchy and filled with people that should not be developing web apps, or at least should not…

You'd be very incorrect if you thought no one was using Symfony2.

I am specifically talking about Symfony2, by the way.

A great number of frameworks and CMSs are using Symfony2 components. Two popular ones are the http-kernel and http-foundation components.

Drupal is integrating several Symfony2 components.

Composer, the PHP package manager that has taken the community by storm, is using Symfony components.

eZ publish is integrating several Symfony2 components.

Joomla! adopted YAML, using a Symfony2 component.

Stating that Symfony2 is not widely used simply tells me you're not keeping up with the PHP community - which would be fine if you're not a PHP developer, but makes your statement not trustworthy.

edit: PHPUnit, the defacto standard PHP unit testing framework, also uses Symfony2's YAML component.

I can go on.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#132

Post by astrodust »

iguana wrote: post #108
chromatic wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At no point in this equation does the relative merits of the language itself factor in. ... except for "easy to deploy", which is a merit.

* Easy to deploy * Cheap to deploy * Easy to find programmers to help you * Affordable programmers * Code is easy to read for non-programmers who understand HTML * Ton of free code available to reuse Inconsistency, poorly thought out OO, lack of purity, and disdain by hipsters are a small price to pay for those merits.

You get what you pay for in the PHP world. You can hire some kid out of high-school to slap together some application in a weekend and pay them in beer, sure, but what will you get? The maintenance costs on this abomination will quickly consume any up-front savings.

Secondly, the reason some programmers are more expensive than others is because they're more efficient.

Who would you rather have? Six PHP programmers that flail away for a month and ship a buggy but usable application? Or maybe two Ruby or Python developers that ship a unit-tested, well engineered application?

The two developers will cost you about the same as the six others if they're top-notch, but they will not make the same mistakes and they will not stumble into every potential pitfall along the way to the solution.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#133

Post by krapp »

astrodust wrote: post #130
krapp wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... disdain by hipsters is a bonus in my book.

So you're a hipster, basically. "Hating PHP? That's so mainstream. Personally, I'm hating on Haskell and NodeJS."

I plan to hate Python once I learn enough of it.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#134

Post by brokenparser »

krapp wrote: post #133
astrodust wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're a hipster, basically. "Hating PHP? That's so mainstream. Personally, I'm hating on Haskell and NodeJS."

I plan to hate Python once I learn enough of it.

Significant whitespace.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#135

Post by adambard »

eevee wrote: post #114
adambard wrote: post #84

I cannot possibly hope to express the reasons I dislike PHP better than this comprehensive article: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... An excerpt: > I can’t even say what’s wrong with PHP, because— okay. Imagine you have uh, a toolbox. A set of tools. Looks okay, standard stuff in there. > You pull out a screwdriver, and you see it’s one of those weird tri-headed things. Okay, well, that’…

I seriously only added this metaphor as an afterthought, after pulling it out of my ass to explain all the furious typing to my partner. It's pretty funny that it's become the most famous part of the article.

It's definitely the most quotable bit. I'd say you actually make your point a lot better through sheer quantity, but that's a bit harder to convey in excerpt form.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#136

Post by adambard »

Osiris wrote: post #95
adambard wrote: post #84

I cannot possibly hope to express the reasons I dislike PHP better than this comprehensive article: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... An excerpt: > I can’t even say what’s wrong with PHP, because— okay. Imagine you have uh, a toolbox. A set of tools. Looks okay, standard stuff in there. > You pull out a screwdriver, and you see it’s one of those weird tri-headed things. Okay, well, that’…

Really? I've heard all these ridiculous analogies but for some reason no one's every written up actual PHP examples to explain why this is true (Most of the examples in that link are weird things I've never seen anyone actually do). I've spent the last 8 months writing a fairly complex application as a REST API entirely in PHP and I can't say that I've ever run into any weird scenarios where I think to myself, "Damn,…

    php > $x = array("a" => 1, "b" => 2);
    php > echo $x["a"] . "\n";
    1
    php > echo array("a" => 1, "b" => 2)["a"] . "\n";
    PHP Parse error:  syntax error, unexpected '[', expecting ',' or ';' in php shell code on line 1
I don't mean to denigrate everyone who uses PHP. But there's a whole world of great languages out there, and the vast majority of them act in more consistent (not to mention pleasant) ways than PHP.

When I got into web dev I spent 2 years developing in PHP before moving on. My programs worked fine, eventually, and some were even well-written. I'm sure yours are too. That doesn't make PHP any less of a mess. But I never understood until I moved on to Ruby and Python and beyond just what a mess it was.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#137

Post by adambard »

eli wrote: post #94
adambard wrote: post #84

I cannot possibly hope to express the reasons I dislike PHP better than this comprehensive article: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... An excerpt: > I can’t even say what’s wrong with PHP, because— okay. Imagine you have uh, a toolbox. A set of tools. Looks okay, standard stuff in there. > You pull out a screwdriver, and you see it’s one of those weird tri-headed things. Okay, well, that’…

Got it. You don't like PHP. I don't think that has much to do with this announcement. I don't like Java, but I do not feel offended that GAE supports it.

I probably should have posted that in the existing php-sucks party above, I suppose.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#138

Post by iguana »

astrodust wrote: post #132
iguana wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* Easy to deploy * Cheap to deploy * Easy to find programmers to help you * Affordable programmers * Code is easy to read for non-programmers who understand HTML * Ton of free code available to reuse Inconsistency, poorly thought out OO, lack of purity, and disdain by hipsters are a small price to pay for those merits.

You get what you pay for in the PHP world. You can hire some kid out of high-school to slap together some application in a weekend and pay them in beer, sure, but what will you get? The maintenance costs on this abomination will quickly consume any up-front savings. Secondly, the reason some programmers are more expensive than others is because they're more efficient. Who would you rather have? Six PHP programmers th…

You're mixing technologies (PHP vs Ruby / Python) with types of programmers (inexperienced vs experienced).

Wielding a master's sword does not a swordmaster make. Surely you've seen enough RoR and Django projects to know that.

Some people will say that something not written in a strongly typed language is not well engineered. If it's not compiled, it's not efficient. This is just programming snobbery. For what it's worth, I was that kid in high school, except back then it was Perl. That's how I learned. Something that makes it even easier? That just creates more programmers. Without shitty programmers, we'd be paid a lot less.

I talk a lot of smack about PHP and JavaScript, but these terrible languages have brought more people to programming than any other languages.

Re: Google Compute Engine available for everyone, App Engine adds PHP

#139

Post by iguana »

astrodust wrote: post #128
vidarh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering is not computer science. A sane engineer don't pick technology based on what is most theoretically pure, but based on what can deliver on the requirements on time and on budget. If you are building a simple CRUD style application, for example, there's likely nothing in your technical requirements that precludes PHP in any way. Then the question turns to ease of deployment and maintenance, operational cost…

For the question "I want to build a web application", PHP is not the answer. It is the worst in nearly every category you cite. Are there automated deployment tools written in PHP for PHP applications? I mean ones that can be taken seriously. What optimization options do you have for PHP? What latitude do you have with hosting? If you're not Facebook, writing your own PHP engine, you're going to be stuck with one of…

Software snobbery.

"Cost and developer time are non-factors"

Bro, do you even startup?

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