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Where Is .Net Headed?

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Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#61

Post by pjmlp »

cooldeal wrote: post #10

Great, another .NET is dying post voted up on HN. Didn't we have one of those just this morning? Meanwhile, in the real world, Microsoft posted these earnings: "Server & Tools business reported $5.04 billion of revenue, up 11% from last year" Inspite of competing products like Linux, Apache, Eclipse, Ruby, Java being given away for free, people are willing to pay for Windows Server, Visual Studio and IIS. Does anyone…

Because HN readers are too young to remember the days without open source, where you needed to pay for the tooling, and think Microsoft is the only commercial vendor of developer tools.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#62

Post by recoiledsnake »

cookiecaper wrote: post #55
jussij wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quite a few people are locked into that toolchain and don't have a choice but to continue buying what Microsoft is selling. I don't buy that for a minute. The Windows Server division is one of the fastest growing divisions inside of Microsoft. From their last Q3FY13 report revenue from server and tools grew 11% driven by SQL server and Windows Server growth. Based on those figures business is scrambling to buy into…

I don't know if that's a valid extrapolation. I, for one, in all my working years have never met a Linux company that was interested in switching to .NET, but I met many that wanted it the other way around if they could only justify the upfront investment to convert the proprietary application stack. With cross-platform compatibility, specifically mobile compatibility [on platforms people actually use, i.e., not Wind…

>I don't know if that's a valid extrapolation. I, for one, in all my working years have never met a Linux company that was interested in switching to .NET, but I met many that wanted it the other way around if they could only justify the upfront investment to convert the proprietary application stack.

Thanks for doing exactly what the OP requested commenters NOT to do.

From the OP post:

"Does anyone have real data related to ".NET is dying" other than idle conjecture, short sighted "frog in the well" anectodes which sound like they're written and voted up by people sipping on a latte on a Macbook in a Starbucks in Silicon Valley?

Again, any hard data will be appreciated that shows .NET is dying instead of the same paragraph upon paragraph of opinion and no links, references or data, we have enough HN comments of that already."

The world is much much much bigger than what you saw in all your working years. That's why personal anecdotes are quite worthless and we need real numbers.

So many paragraphs of speculation and no links or references from people living in their own little bubble and mistaking it for the world.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#63

Post by Retric »

ilaksh wrote: post #26
cooldeal wrote: post #10

Great, another .NET is dying post voted up on HN. Didn't we have one of those just this morning? Meanwhile, in the real world, Microsoft posted these earnings: "Server & Tools business reported $5.04 billion of revenue, up 11% from last year" Inspite of competing products like Linux, Apache, Eclipse, Ruby, Java being given away for free, people are willing to pay for Windows Server, Visual Studio and IIS. Does anyone…

Quite a few people are locked into that toolchain and don't have a choice but to continue buying what Microsoft is selling. And I think that is one of the main reasons that many .NET developers who are a little bit familiar with open source and non-Microsoft technologies are starting to wonder if its worthwhile paying all of that money to have Microsoft make all of those architectural decisions for them. Just start w…

The cost of the MS tool-chain is basically a rounding error on internal software projects. An enterprise MSDN subscription is a under 1% of my billable rate for the year and servers are ridiculously cheap even when paying for the windows stack. Now sure plenty of FOSS toolchain can work wonders, but when building small internal sites and compared to the Java stack we are simply far more effective.

PS: I have seen it both ways, Java redeveloped in .Net and .Net redeveloped in Java. Generally things where better in the .Net world. I spent years as a Java developer and find the idea of going back is horrifying.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#64

Post by pjmlp »

ilaksh wrote: post #38
ComputerGuru wrote: post #33

Regardless of where .NET is headed, C# the language (which is an entirely separate beast) has, in my humble opinion, become the most damn awesome all-around language. It's got all the awesome features most of which are very elegantly implemented and accessible in a very streamlined fashion. Obviously if you hate C-syntax, C# isn't going to win any brownie points, but in terms of sheer power and flexibility, C# 5.0 st…

Start with the name, ".NET". What were they referring to when they chose that name very carefully? They were referring to the web. C# 5.0? Take a look at this example code from the MSDN blog which is "showing off" the new features of C# 5.0. (It was formatted this way with no indentation on the blog). This example, not by coincidence, demonstrates how .NET interfaces with the web. private async void btnTest_Click(obj…

> First of all, why would I want to create an application that runs on the desktop, rather than build a web application that I can show to people with a link? Especially

To take proper advantage of the hardware and provide proper integration with the operating system.

The browser is for documents.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#65

Post by ilaksh »

pantaloons wrote: post #44
ilaksh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with the name, ".NET". What were they referring to when they chose that name very carefully? They were referring to the web. C# 5.0? Take a look at this example code from the MSDN blog which is "showing off" the new features of C# 5.0. (It was formatted this way with no indentation on the blog). This example, not by coincidence, demonstrates how .NET interfaces with the web. private async void btnTest_Click(obj…

For one, you're criticizing a web API here and not the C# language-- and you've failed to even do that convincingly since it's an intentionally verbose example using an outdated API. res.Text = (await new HtppClient().GetStringAsync(url.Text)).Length.ToString(); (Disclaimer: I work at MS.)

Well, that's not bad, but I think the CoffeeScript is better

    $.get $('#url').val(), (res) -> $('#res').val res.length
Or using LiveScript backcalls is even cooler:

    data
Or in IcedCoffeeScript if you like 'await'

    await $.get 'documentation/css/docs.css', defer res
    console.log res
Or check out the huge list of languages that compile to JavaScript at http://altjs.org/

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#66

Post by pjmlp »

kyllo wrote: post #17
rocky1138 wrote: post #6

They should add Java as a CLR-supported language :P

I might use the opposite--a JVM implementation of C#--if such a thing existed. A port of Java on the CLR would be useless to me though, because I don't use .NET but if I did, C# has better features than Java as a language.

You cannot do that, because CLR has pointers, value types, unions and proper tail call optimization.

So those features are not mappable to the JVM.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#67

Post by px1999 »

untog wrote: post #12
at-fates-hands wrote: post #5

I currently work at a fairly large MS client. No way we're going to abandon .Net right now or in the next few years. We're currently in the process of getting ready for a migration to Sharepoint Server 2013 which will cement the company with .Net for at least the next two to three years. We still have several sites on the old 2007 platform with no hint of moving those over any time soon. I'm wondering what you see as…

I think the future of the MVC framework is a better question. It's stuck in the middle of two worlds- huge corporate projects don't use it, and anyone that even thinks about MVC will be more likely to use something like Ruby.

I don't know if I agree with this. I've worked on large MVC applications for government, they definitely exist. MVC is IMO a simpler (and more consistent?) beast than aspnet, and in my experience doesn't have the same lazy legacy/dinosaur developers, so there's a smaller volume of questions for the number of lines of code written.

.NET vs Ruby is a whole holy war which I'm not going to get into, but there are a lot of people out there who like to get shit done, and find that .NET (and MVC) works just fine (great even) for that.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#68

Post by jussij »

roc wrote: post #58
jussij wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quite a few people are locked into that toolchain and don't have a choice but to continue buying what Microsoft is selling. I don't buy that for a minute. The Windows Server division is one of the fastest growing divisions inside of Microsoft. From their last Q3FY13 report revenue from server and tools grew 11% driven by SQL server and Windows Server growth. Based on those figures business is scrambling to buy into…

Those numbers don't necessarily mean anyone is making a conscious decision to buy in. they could simply mean the installed base needs 11% more server licensing by dollar to scale/maintain their existing solutions.

So there are all these customers that hate the Microsoft toolchain and also know they are getting shafted by Microsoft.

In fact the customers hate Microsoft so much they decided to pay Microsoft an extra 11% bonus this year (and will probably pay another 11% bonus next year), even though they have all these free toolchain alternatives that they could be using.

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#69

Post by kmontrose »

cookiecaper wrote: post #53
cooldeal wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to buy them: http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/default.aspx Prime example: Stackoverflow/StackExchange is built on the Microsoft stack.

Not sure if that is a prime example, since StackOverflow was built with the wealthy businessman Joel Spolsky as a primary backer. That doesn't diminish anything they accomplished, it just means that they didn't do it without access to sufficient resources.

At Stack Overflow we ran on Bizpark til sometime in 2012, it really is a very nice program (everyone seems to forget that you keep the licenses you get, it's not like you have to re-buy everything when you graduate).

While I suppose in theory Joel could have thrown a lot of money away just because it didn't happen that way. Stack Overflow was running on it's own income until the first round of funding ( http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/05/announcing-our-series-... ), excepting the pre-launch period (everyone might have just taken equity then, I don't know I wasn't around until just before the series A). I think it was mostly ad income, though Careers ( http://careers.stackoverflow.com/ ) was around fairly early too.

Disclaimer: Stack Exchange employee

Re: Where Is .Net Headed?

#70

Post by coldtea »

cooldeal wrote: post #10

Great, another .NET is dying post voted up on HN. Didn't we have one of those just this morning? Meanwhile, in the real world, Microsoft posted these earnings: "Server & Tools business reported $5.04 billion of revenue, up 11% from last year" Inspite of competing products like Linux, Apache, Eclipse, Ruby, Java being given away for free, people are willing to pay for Windows Server, Visual Studio and IIS. Does anyone…

>"Server & Tools business reported $5.04 billion of revenue, up 11% from last year"

So, they made in a year something around what Apple makes every quarter just from iPad sales? That's the rosy sign MS's "Servers and Tools" business is doing OK?

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