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The dying platform: .Net

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Re: The dying platform: .Net

#101

Post by zwieback »

chris_wot wrote: post #13
zwieback wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean. Ignoring the server side for a moment, are people not using .Net or do you just not like it? And once you've paid for Visual Studio, what other costs are there, assuming your workstation already runs Windows?

You present a false dichotomy. I neither said that people aren't using .NET or that I dislike it. I'm saying that having .NET installed on the desktop doesn't sell copies of their latest operating system, and for most corporates they are deploying web apps via ASP.NET. I see no reason why I should be ignoring the server marketplace, because IMHO frankly that's where the corporate dollar is.

Got it, thanks for clarifying. My original point was just that .Net isn't dying as the article said. It may not be making a lot more dollars for MS, though, agree with that.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#102

Post by hga »

gregd wrote: post #62
hga wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they do that, they kill the commercial viability of alternatives, which among other things has anti-trust implications.

In what way? They already have Intellisense and controls built into the IDE. Red Gate and Jet Brains just make them better IMHO. Some people prefer CodeRush and JustCode, although with my scenario in purchasing Telerik, JustCode would become part of the deal... Some people prefer DevExpress and Infragistics to Telerik...

I'm not at all familiar with the current ecosystem, but the theory is that complete replacements for VS wouldn't be able to compete if VS was free.

Whatever the merits of the thesis, they'd certainly get sued, and almost certainly lose.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#103

Post by kyllo »

rubinelli wrote: post #16

Java isn't looking too good, either, at least in the desktop. You know your platform has jumped the shark when it comes bundled with a toolbar. The question is, where to next? I've been watching Go for a while, but it looks like a tool from Googlers, for Googlers. Pulling all my dependencies from HEAD? No, thank you. Ironically, Javascript looks very promising right now, compared with the alternatives.

How exactly is Javascript a promising alternative platform to the JVM or .NET? Javascript is a language. Which Javascript platform are you talking about, that provides alternative ways to do what JVM and .NET do?

The JVM is getting better and better, by the way. Java 8 will be a better language with lambdas and closures. Groovy, Scala, Clojure, Jython, JRuby, and other JVM language implementations are currently great options for developing both portable desktop apps and web apps.

Not sure where Go fits into this either, Go is more of a replacement for C++ by and for Googlers who got sick of C++'s pain points.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#104

Post by metaxy2 »

Some good arguments, but isn't .NET still the best platform for making truly native looking Windows desktop apps with a simple, high level language? Qt and wxWidgets are decent, but it's a lot trickier to get a native look and feel with those. There's a reason so many apps maintain separate versions for Windows and Mac rather than try to get by with a cross platform GUI toolkit.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#105

Post by rubinelli »

kyllo wrote: post #103
rubinelli wrote: post #16

Java isn't looking too good, either, at least in the desktop. You know your platform has jumped the shark when it comes bundled with a toolbar. The question is, where to next? I've been watching Go for a while, but it looks like a tool from Googlers, for Googlers. Pulling all my dependencies from HEAD? No, thank you. Ironically, Javascript looks very promising right now, compared with the alternatives.

How exactly is Javascript a promising alternative platform to the JVM or .NET? Javascript is a language. Which Javascript platform are you talking about, that provides alternative ways to do what JVM and .NET do? The JVM is getting better and better, by the way. Java 8 will be a better language with lambdas and closures. Groovy, Scala, Clojure, Jython, JRuby, and other JVM language implementations are currently great…

With HMTL 5, Javascript, and a fast VM, you can do a lot of damage nowadays.

And the problem with Java isn't technical. I have a couple of Sun certificates, use it every day, and know what it can do. The problem is that I don't want to depend on a company that doesn't even pretend to have customers and developers' best interests at heart.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#106

Post by dennisgorelik »

maresca wrote: post #60
chiph wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - Silverlight was obviously a tactical response to the threat of Flash. When Flash went into (steep) decline, there was no reason to keep Silverlight around. Both of us called this one correctly. WCF, on the other hand, is doing really well and is a decent approach to a framework around enterprise communications. But I admit that more often than not, I'm hand-coding my proxies to avoid code-bloat from generat…

There's something about WCF that rubs me the wrong way. I like coding Web Services. WCF just feels like bloat on top of web services. And traditional web services can be used cross-platform. I'm not sure WCF can. Maybe I'm just sticking with not fixing something that's not broken.

Exactly: WCF == bloat.

Bloat in XML, bloat in configuration, bloat in object model...

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#107

Post by kyllo »

rubinelli wrote: post #105
kyllo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly is Javascript a promising alternative platform to the JVM or .NET? Javascript is a language. Which Javascript platform are you talking about, that provides alternative ways to do what JVM and .NET do? The JVM is getting better and better, by the way. Java 8 will be a better language with lambdas and closures. Groovy, Scala, Clojure, Jython, JRuby, and other JVM language implementations are currently great…

With HMTL 5, Javascript, and a fast VM, you can do a lot of damage nowadays. And the problem with Java isn't technical. I have a couple of Sun certificates, use it every day, and know what it can do. The problem is that I don't want to depend on a company that doesn't even pretend to have customers and developers' best interests at heart.

Oh, I'm not a fan of Oracle either. Who is?

But I think you're confusing a language with a development platform/VM/runtime.

C# is a language. .NET is a platform that includes a C# compiler. Java is a language. JVM is a platform that includes a Java compiler. Javascript is a language, not a platform.

What Javascript platform do you think can replace .NET and JVM? Node.js on top of V8?

Or are you really suggesting that Javascript inside a web browser is all you need for application development anymore?

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#108

Post by rubinelli »

kyllo wrote: post #107
rubinelli wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With HMTL 5, Javascript, and a fast VM, you can do a lot of damage nowadays. And the problem with Java isn't technical. I have a couple of Sun certificates, use it every day, and know what it can do. The problem is that I don't want to depend on a company that doesn't even pretend to have customers and developers' best interests at heart.

Oh, I'm not a fan of Oracle either. Who is? But I think you're confusing a language with a development platform/VM/runtime. C# is a language. .NET is a platform that includes a C# compiler. Java is a language. JVM is a platform that includes a Java compiler. Javascript is a language, not a platform. What Javascript platform do you think can replace .NET and JVM? Node.js on top of V8? Or are you really suggesting that…

Frankly, I'm not sure. A stripped browser + Node.js sounds pretty compelling, but there are tons of projects using Javascript or offering Javascript bindings right now. It could be Qt 5, for example.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#109

Post by yuhong »

cygwin98 wrote: post #48

I always wonder if it's a better strategy for Microsoft to introduce the Windows AppStore in Windows 7 first and grow the eco-system there, just like what Apple did MacAppStore to Lion, heck, even 10.6.6 (Snow Leopard) has access to it. Oh, well, perhaps the higher-ups in MSFT need to have a clue first.

Unfortunately, they decided to tie it to Metro, which would be too much to backport to Win7.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#110

Post by yuhong »

gbog wrote: post #76

> "Inherent hatred for Microsoft and anything it does, even if it is good. I think is pretty sad since I see this attitude from people that should be objective from a technical standpoint" I have the inverse feeling: recently, just because at MS some people got a catch on a new fashionistas UI, and gave it a sexy name (flat UI), I have read a lot of praise for this company, as if it was something someone could wish t…

Note that IE6 was not crappy when released. It was it's stagnation that made it became crappy over time.
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