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The dying platform: .Net

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Re: The dying platform: .Net

#71

Post by sergiotapia »

melc wrote: post #57

At the server side it simply gives no choice but proprietary and unreliable ms systems and a weak app/web server (iis). The desktop client side is only good for ms clients. For the devices realm there is nothing to talk about really and regarding windows phone it's a bit early. I've worked with .net in the past but now i usually avoid it as much as i can.

"Weak" Hah! I'd like to see some references to that claim.

Oh wait, here it is: [1] - melc's ass.

============

IIS has given me a TON of performance right out of the box with a fantastic GUI editor for settings. StackOverflow a website with MILLIONS of monthly hits runs fine with IIS.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#72

Post by powertower »

ohwp wrote: post #19

According to a lot of job sites .NET isn't dying at all... Maybe the author has the feeling it is dying because other platforms are in the news more often?

As a .NET/C# developer, I couldn't disagree more with what the author is saying... So much so, that I really don't think he/she even knows what .NET is.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#73

Post by henrikschroder »

chris_wot wrote: post #6
zwieback wrote: post #2

.Net is one of our workhorses in desktop app development. Maybe it's not the latest trend but there are still a lot of utility apps written in .Net. If your corporate PCs run Windows, as almost all still are, then .Net is your most convenient choice.

Not if you factor in Windows and SQL Server licensing costs. Most people are using ASP.NET (one of the many incarnations, at least). .NET on individual workstations is... irrelevant. Largely.

The cost of Windows Web Server licenses is peanuts when measured against the total cost of building and running the system.

SQL Server is expensive, but completely optional. Just because you use .Net, it doesn't mean you have to use any other piece from the MS stack.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#74

Post by eduardordm »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #24

.NET has a long life ahead of itself in the enterprise, where companies on "the Microsoft stack" typically won't even use 3rd party libraries where there is a Microsoft sanctioned alternative. Until Microsoft comes out with a replacement for things like Windows services and web application development, .NET will be around. I don't see there being an alternative even on the horizon. Presumably they could create a Node…

Keep in mind that .NET is relatively new to the enterprise and lots of those companies didn't even get out of cobol yet.

Opinion:

Timing is a important factor here. My bet is those enterprise companies skipped the .NET/JavaEE era and will jump right into what is coming next.

I know a couple of banks that are heavy Adabas/Natural users for decades. When .NET/JavaEE boomed they opted to just wait. Now, no single framework can really solve most of your problems. In fact, the problems are so heterogeneous that using frameworks at all is becoming completely irrelevant.

That said, .NET, JavaEE, Rails, Django, they are all dead to a certain point. What we will see is the rise of the non-frameworks. People will start doing their own stuff on Go (or anything else) and maybe will start open sourcing parts of it. You will have a lot of mini libraries that you will put together to fit your needs.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#75

Post by mamp »

mhd wrote: post #39
MichaelAza wrote: post #7

.NET, like practically all tolls by Microsoft, is good for one thing - Large scale enterprise development for Windows. It plays well with Office, Access, Sharepoint, Active Directory, IIS etc. and it's the best around at what it's doing. You can also do webdev or solve highly concurrent problems with .NET and it's great at that as well (I'm very fond of the Nancy framework and C#'s async/await are a godsend) but it's…

Don't forget the desktop sector, which isn't entirely dead yet. Pretty much everything is better than MFC, and with Delphi going nowhere (for obvious reasons), a lot of people writing relatively small custom software apps transitioned to .NET, either with C# or VB. Don't think that will change that much with WinRT. (JavaScript seems mostly an angle to get some web developers to do small Metro apps)

I think MS have lost a lot of support on the desktop after deprecating Windows Forms (which is all a lot of enterprise apps need), followed by WPF/Silverlight's poor penetration leaving no hardware accelerated graphics for non-WPF (bit blitting excluded), and then the confusing messages around WinRT which at one point looked like they were deprecating WPF as well.

While the front end flashy stuff isn't there compared in .net compared to the better Javascript libraries (I love d3!) MS have really progressed the non-sexy .net improvements e.g. C# evolution, F#, WebAPI.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#76

Post by gbog »

> "Inherent hatred for Microsoft and anything it does, even if it is good. I think is pretty sad since I see this attitude from people that should be objective from a technical standpoint"

I have the inverse feeling: recently, just because at MS some people got a catch on a new fashionistas UI, and gave it a sexy name (flat UI), I have read a lot of praise for this company, as if it was something someone could wish that their tablet or mobile OS would get back on the front of the scene.

This just shows how shallow are the memories of us, developpers. So let's restate it vigorously:

MicroSoft is deservedly hated for extremely grave sins against the industry commited not so long ago.

They regularly force OS upgrades nobody wants even when the failure is patent, and their software is so unmanageable that most PC users have become like beaten dogs begging for the minimal working setup, admiring those who know how to ctrl-tab to another window, fearful of any changes in their software installation, inculated from viruses by rootkits that even more harmful than what they are supposed to protect you against, and the only action they dare take beside reading email is to reboot, and take a coffee break.

They, MicroSoft, also imposed a central crappy software (IE 6) on their monopolistic OS, and used this position to try to smother the big waves we are all surfing on: the Internet itself. They purposedly tried to strangulate the distributed network, because it was not going to bow and contribute to the church tax.

No, Internet's fate was not granted, it could have become a TV-like network of a few content providers like AOL feeding users through the nose. Actually, it is still under attack, also from other threats, many of them having grown on its roots.

MicroSoft is a mammoth, she will endure a very long death, but let's have the minimal pity, and let's not make this agony longer by unduly praising their latest relative PR success.

End of the rant.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#77

Post by DanielBMarkham »

martijn_himself wrote: post #58
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #31

Microsoft has too many developers and not enough innovation. They encourage a design attitude that everything has to operate like the flight deck of a 747. Their culture has been incestuous so long that any change is terribly unlikely. There are some really, really sharp guys at Microsoft. Not only does the community deserve better products from such a great company, the developers in many cases have an very unpleasa…

>They encourage a design attitude that everything has to operate like the flight deck of a 747 I agree. If you have ever done any development using SharePoint or Dynamics CRM API's and SDK's you will know how much of an overengineered mess these applications are. The unnecessary complexity of these applications does however create demand for thousands of developers to untangle the mess.

I feel very sorry for my friends who are actively writing projects in the latest .NET Whiz-Bangedness.

They're all so optimistic, with regurgitated Microsoft marketing-speak about how this bell or whistle is going to magically solve this or that problem, and how easy everything is to do now. They've been eagerly awaiting a new customer to try this stuff out on.

Then, sometimes just within days, I start hearing the pain. It's always the same -- the damned development ecosystem is a freaking nightmare and some little gotcha somewhere is killing hours (or days) of time.

I used to teach .NET. Everything is awesome as long as you go down 7 or 8 pre-defined paths. But nothing ever works like that in the real world. There's nothing like watching a new developer drag a control onto a form, take a look a the properties page with it's 40-thousand item madness, and be utterly and completely at sea. Lost. Bewildered and rendered ineffectual. Their stuff is full of experiences like that.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#78

Post by FatGuyInACoat »

sanderjd wrote: post #54
exch wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have to agree here. There is no difference between Go's way of managing external dependencies, compared to any other language/platform where you use external packages. Whether they are manually downloaded and built, or pulled from some kind of source-control repo. The `go get ...` approach is just a convenience tool you can use /IF/ you want to. I get the impression that much of the complaints stem from not reall…

The real shame is that so many people are willing to outsource their opinion-building to random ranters on random message boards.

Which is pretty much why people think .Net is dying in the first place.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#79

Post by cl8ton »

potatolicious wrote: post #70
cl8ton wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the things MS pulled the plug on needed it. I can’t vouch for WinRT development but the .NET 4.5 is rock solid and predictable for WinPhone & Win7/8 from my desk. Have you used NuGet yet with over 1100 packages? Microsoft is a public company that makes software and sells it for a profit, what is wrong with this business model? All the free open source software you use to make a product, do you then give your…

> "Some of the things MS pulled the plug on needed it." Sure, the complaint isn't about pulling the plug on things in general, but rather how fragmented and difficult the documentation has become. If class Foo has been deprecated in favor of class Bar in a different namespace, say so on Foo's page. If class Foo is a basic utility class, it would greatly help if the documentation could point to Bar, if Bar was the sup…

I agree with you on the lack of iOS & Android support in .NET so far (i'm using Xamarin to bridge this now).

But I am personally confident MS will attack this market with full steam and deliver native tools to their developers sooner rather than later.

Re: The dying platform: .Net

#80

Post by innguest »

tcbawo wrote: post #4

I am disappointed in the near-abandonment of IronPython and IronRuby.

I am as well. They were so close to propelling Ruby as the desktop language of choice. I remember how easy it was to program GUI in IronRuby...:

  button = Button.new
  button.text = 'Foo'
  button.location = Point.new(0,0)
  button.click {|sender, e| do_something}
  window.controls.add(button)
Makes Qt and Gtk look like over-engineered monstrosities.
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