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Firefox, Heal Thyself

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Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#61
My observations, using both Firefox (well, Iceweasel 20.0-1~bpo60+1), and Chrome (Chromium 26.0.1410.43-1). In many ways, I prefer Firefox as a browser (better plugins, controls, tabs, too much Google influence already).

My Firefox experience is getting to the point it's virtually unusable, with very, very slow response to any actions (especially new tab / new window functions). We're talking about many seconds, sometimes a minute or more.

While the overall footprint of Firefox is smaller than Chrome, Chrome's sandboxing of tabs gives vastly better user-based memory management: I've got the option of killing off tabs (without closing them) that are using excessive memory, restoring net system responsiveness.

Firefox uses a single process space, and slowness in one tab seems to extend elsewhere (my general observation, not based on analysis).

A larger part of the problem is a combination of how browsers facilitate (or don't) content management and browsing as a task and workflow, and the increasing emphasis on highly-interactive sites.

The lack of such tools, and especially the paucity of bookmarks as a management tool, means that my usual workflow management is:

- Open browser.

- Open lots of tabs. It's not uncommon for me to have 100s of tabs open across multiple browser windows.

For Firefox, Tree Style Tabs at least give some semblance of structure as to how I've traced down some link path. The flat horizontal tabs of Chrome absolutely suck in this regard. Having a better way to navigate the tabspace would help greatly.

What I've recently discovered, and what's radically changing my use of the Web, is Readability (Instapaper and Pocket are similar services). It's amazing. I've written a bit about this at Google+: https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/PhQR421e... https://plus.google.com/104092656004159577193/posts/fVK7aJuB...

Readability solves three problems:

It renders web pages viewable. Far, far, far too many websites have designs which are overtly hostile to actually reading content (even HN, to some degree). Even those which are readable are far too distracting in the present ad-driven eyeball economy.

It manages my reading list. Rather than opening content in tabs, I append it to my reading list. Readability also offers tags (though limited to 500 per user, a wall I hit 2 days in) to help organize content (Firefox offers these for bookmarks, Chrome does not).

And the reading list is available across different browsers and devices (I'm not usually a fan of sharing personal information, least of all my reading interests, through a service, but in this case the convenience factor wins out).

Both of these factors could be addressed, somewhat, in a browser. I've been agitating for a while for a bifurcation of the browser space. Give me:

1. A browser primarily oriented at CONTENT. Simple, minimal page presentation (along the lined of Readability), focusing principally on core page content. With wide margins, high contrast, and a readable font face, and the ability to manage, organize, prioritize, sort, search, and cross-reference content.

2. A browser that is a highly-interactive application engine. Essentially today's Chrome (this fits with Google's long-term interests at replacing desktop apps).

We've mashed both of these under a single roof, and the fit's getting increasingly awkward.

Some things that would greatly help Firefox (and Chrome for that matter):

You do not need to have every tab loaded, rendered, in active memory and sucking CPU at the same time.

Give priority to the foreground tab. Close out background tabs (on a least-used / highest-footprint basis) and restore them when they're navigated to. The tab-switching hit should be bought back by overall greater browser performance.

Completely redesign bookmarks with thought given to workflow. The absolutely WORST UI attribute in any environment I've encountered across platforms is windows which cannot be resized, and bookmark management windows are horrible in this respect. I need MUCH more space to work with.

Improve responsiveness. One of the most painful aspects is how I interact with bookmarks. I can't open my bookmarks list, left-click a folder, and select "add page here" from a menu. Why not? DO NOT REPLICATE CHROME'S PLACEMENT OF "DELETE FOLDER" IMMEDIATELY ABOVE "ADD PAGE AND FAIL TO PROVIDE A DELETION CONFIRMATION DIALOG FFS!!!!!*

The existing "add page modal dialog is fucking annoying as hell* Half the time I want to refer back to the browser page itself to add information but the modal dialog blocks all browser page input.

Provide a duplicate entry search and reconcilliation.

Emphasize tags. They're present but poorly presented.

Emphasize bookmarks for navigation.

Improve annotation capabilities, including cross-referencing.

Provide a decentralized sharing mechanism. I don't care for SAAS generally on privacy basis, think FreedomBox. A low-overhead means to reference a resource from which I can post/recover my bookmarks from multiple devices and browsers would be useful.

Include a few lines of context from the page. Readability's "expanded* article view is excellent in this regard. Page titles almost always pretty much exactly suck. Though if you do this, provide both expanded and collapsed views.

ALLOW THE BOOKMARKS LIST TO WORK AS WORKFLOWS. "Date added", "date modified", and "last viewed" would be great. An "archive" flag is also useful (promote unarchived bookmarks up, allow viewing archived bookmarks if desired).

Provide the ability to download the bookmarks source in offline-readable format. Readability has the capacity to create ePub and Kindle content. Though it doesn't have a bulk-export tool (this would fucking completely absolutely rock my world).

Look at eBook management tools -- Moon+Reader, Calibre, etc. These are designed with libraries of content in mind. As antipatterns, look at Adobe Reader and PDF management in general (there is none) and avoid their worse mistakes, specifically: no management of archives, no bookmarking, no annotations, fixed-form-factor rendering, craptastic search, no tagging, poor zoom, very awkward in-document navigation, no cross-referencing capabilities.

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#62

My observations, using both Firefox (well, Iceweasel 20.0-1~bpo60+1), and Chrome (Chromium 26.0.1410.43-1). In many ways, I prefer Firefox as a browser (better plugins, controls, tabs, too much Google influence already). My Firefox experience is getting to the point it's virtually unusable, with very, very slow response to any actions (especially new tab / new window functions). We're talking about many seconds, some…

Re. Firefox:

1. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558882

2. This is being worked on. Gecko is a very old and complex codebase, and doing that without breaking every existing addon is hard.

> You do not need to have every tab loaded, rendered, in active memory and sucking CPU at the same time. > Give priority to the foreground tab. Close out background tabs (on a least-used / highest-footprint basis) and restore them when they're navigated to. The tab-switching hit should be bought back by overall greater browser performance.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=675539

> windows which cannot be resized, and bookmark management windows are horrible in this respect

Maybe you're talking about Chrome here? I don't know, Firefox's History window is resizeable.

> Improve responsiveness.

See https://wiki.mozilla.org/Performance/Snappy and point 2 above.

The points re. tags, bookmarks and annotations can and should be implemented as addons.

> Provide a decentralized sharing mechanism F1/Firefox Share was being worked on a while ago. I don't know what happened to the project.

> "Date added", "date modified", and "last viewed" would be great.

We have all of that, in the History window.

> Provide the ability to download the bookmarks source in offline-readable format.

Seems like a great idea for an addon.

Firefox is not library management software, but it's flexible enough that you can turn it into one.

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#63
post #35

I'm not sure if this applies, but I really hope they provide better tools to identify badly behaving webpages. Sometimes when my CPU or memory are being cranked by Firefox, I really just want to kill the one tab out of 50 that's causing all the problems.

It would be great if they could roll such a feature into a convenient UI. Just a magic "Firefox, whatever you are doing.. knock it off" button would be great. It could look at system memory usage and CPU usage, determine if either is high enough that it might cause user distress, and kill whatever tabs are the most likely offenders.

[deleted]

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#64
post #60

My single largest issue with Firefox stability is constantly running into the 32bit memory barrier. Either split tabs out into multiple processes, or enable 64bit support already. My browser crashes on average twice a day due to running out of memory and FF just giving up. It doesn't even crash gracefully, it just up and quits. (I frequently have ~100 tabs open, and I am quite thankful that Firefox lets me search acr…

I really can't understand how many people consistently talk about having hundreds of tabs open. What are you so afraid of closing a website for? If it's that important, you will remember to go back to it later. Usually, it's not.

Once I get to 10 or 15 tabs I usually end up closing all but one or two just to stay focused.

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#65
post #60

My single largest issue with Firefox stability is constantly running into the 32bit memory barrier. Either split tabs out into multiple processes, or enable 64bit support already. My browser crashes on average twice a day due to running out of memory and FF just giving up. It doesn't even crash gracefully, it just up and quits. (I frequently have ~100 tabs open, and I am quite thankful that Firefox lets me search acr…

I really can't understand how many people consistently talk about having hundreds of tabs open. What are you so afraid of closing a website for? If it's that important, you will remember to go back to it later. Usually, it's not. Once I get to 10 or 15 tabs I usually end up closing all but one or two just to stay focused.

> I really can't understand how many people consistently talk about having hundreds of tabs open. What are you so afraid of closing a website for? If it's that important, you will remember to go back to it later. Usually, it's not.

Well the hacker news homepage for instance.

I typically go down and middle click on any story I find interesting, and the comments section to go with it.

This can easily end up with 8-14 tabs open.

Now repeat the same thing for my Reddit frontpage (or just /r/programming!) and I can easily hit another 30 tabs within a couple of minutes.

Every URL someone posts in the comments that seems interesting also gets opened in a new tab. An active discussion easily results in another 5-10 tabs (and remember, that is per discussion thread!).

If one of those tabs goes to Wikipedia, then I'll middle click any links in the Wikipedia article that sound relevant. This can add another 10 tabs easily.

Within 10 minutes of turning on my computer I am now easily up to 50+ tabs.

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#66

My observations, using both Firefox (well, Iceweasel 20.0-1~bpo60+1), and Chrome (Chromium 26.0.1410.43-1). In many ways, I prefer Firefox as a browser (better plugins, controls, tabs, too much Google influence already). My Firefox experience is getting to the point it's virtually unusable, with very, very slow response to any actions (especially new tab / new window functions). We're talking about many seconds, some…

I find it very odd that a lot of the options to do stuff- in Firefox settings OS X - like getting rid of browser history, runs synchronously on the main thread and thus blocking the UI. Something as SIMPLE as that should not be there.. That being said, I am probably insulting someone by calling it simpel :(

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#67

> and your browser can start healing itself I wonder what some specifics are for this statement.

Curious to see this today, as the FF enterprise mailing list has been filled with grumbling this week about FF's inability to auto-update itself or its plugins, and the headaches that causes us IT folk when paired with the auto-quarantining of outdated plugins recently implemented.

I just fired up Firefox and did a help->about firefox. Guess what? I'm still on version 17! Despite all their claims about the silent auto-update feature, it doesn't work if you are running as a limited normal user account.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=711475

I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but I'd don't blame the "IT folk". Seriously, what kind of idiot requires their users to run with administrator accounts for their software to function properly? What is this 2005?

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#68
post #60

My single largest issue with Firefox stability is constantly running into the 32bit memory barrier. Either split tabs out into multiple processes, or enable 64bit support already. My browser crashes on average twice a day due to running out of memory and FF just giving up. It doesn't even crash gracefully, it just up and quits. (I frequently have ~100 tabs open, and I am quite thankful that Firefox lets me search acr…

The 64bit version works perfectly on Linux (and I can only assume OSX). There were some bad problems on windows which caused them to ditch the 64bit development, although the fact that plugins are 32bit doesn't help them either.

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#69
An application health dashboard should be standard practice in large software, especially software that supports plugin and interpreting code. I am sure I am not alone to feel that software get sluggish with time, or that certain updates causes a lot of crashes. A dashboard could monitor this and transparently show whether the application is working as intended, and if it's slow, show what's slowing it down. Good initative!

Re: Firefox, Heal Thyself

#70
post #60

My single largest issue with Firefox stability is constantly running into the 32bit memory barrier. Either split tabs out into multiple processes, or enable 64bit support already. My browser crashes on average twice a day due to running out of memory and FF just giving up. It doesn't even crash gracefully, it just up and quits. (I frequently have ~100 tabs open, and I am quite thankful that Firefox lets me search acr…

I work at Mozilla and many developers here are 100+ tab users, too. So the use case you describe is not a low priority. Do you have any Firefox add-ons installed? If you have the patience to identify a misbehaving add-on (by bisecting the add-ons you are running), Mozilla might be able to address the problem in the browser or reach out to the add-on developer.
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