Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#111

Post by roguecoder » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:13 PM UTC

chm wrote: post #45

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you turn 14 you'll realize there is actually never an appropriate moment for an Ayn Rand quote.

I have never read Ayn Rand, but I have heard of her before. Why are such quotes inappropriate?

It's essentially the equivalent of quoting Karl Marx. They are both so blinded by adherence to a since-discredited world view that their positions are laughable at best and at worse provide excuses for destructive behavior. Those who quote either typically haven't bothered to branch out beyond a simplistic, falsifiable perspective. Such an approach supports the smug self-satisfaction of dogmatic certainty over actually being correct.

Or, more succinctly, "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#112

Post by kunai » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:17 PM UTC

abduhl wrote: post #85

kunai wrote: post #43

This is unsafe for pedestrians. The yellow light means "Clear the intersection," not "Slow down." The purpose is to give time to people crossing the sidewalks to finish walking over to the other side. Shortening them is a safety hazard for pedestrians like me who don't own a vehicle. I don't live in Florida, but this is shameful and disgusting.

This is absolutely incorrect. Traffic lights are for vehicles. Pedestrians should be obeying the pedestrian signals and your cue to "clear the intersection" is the blinking red hand. Traffic lights do not switch to yellow until after the pedestrian signals are solid red hands. This obviously only applies where pedestrian signage exists.

Obviously, you and I live in different areas. Where I live, the traffic lights turn yellow even when the yellow light has not become solid.

Then, there's also the issue that many pedestrians are still in the process of crossing when the hand turns red.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#113

Post by zwieback » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:18 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #95

scott_karana wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more of an American thing. Her philosophies fit in well with existing Individualism. Her influence was never particularly large, and has faded over time, but left a cultural mark. (See all the objections to the GP? :)

Thanks for answering that. However, I've been exposed to US culture since early adulthood and somehow she or her work didn't come up until I joined HN. It seems to me her influence is especially strong here, but that could of course be anecdotal. From an outsider's perspective it just seems... odd.

I think it's also a libertarian type of view that appeals to technocrats and nerds. The focus on logic, individualism and meritocracy is something that appeals to a lot of the more nerdy among us.

I personally find Ayn Rand too simplistic and from a literary point of view hardly readable but I think she's definitely an important part of American culture but I think at this point she's not as widely read as 20 or 30 years ago.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#114

Post by dopamean » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:29 PM UTC

kunai wrote: post #112

abduhl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely incorrect. Traffic lights are for vehicles. Pedestrians should be obeying the pedestrian signals and your cue to "clear the intersection" is the blinking red hand. Traffic lights do not switch to yellow until after the pedestrian signals are solid red hands. This obviously only applies where pedestrian signage exists.

Obviously, you and I live in different areas. Where I live, the traffic lights turn yellow even when the yellow light has not become solid. Then, there's also the issue that many pedestrians are still in the process of crossing when the hand turns red.

Where do you live that traffic lights are for pedestrians. I really believe you have misunderstood something.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#115

Post by ok_craig » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:29 PM UTC

mistercow wrote: post #70

jrajav wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And at another point, possibly later, you realize that blind rejection is just as intellectually lazy as blind acceptance.

Blind rejection is a useful heuristic, and avoiding effort is not necessarily laziness. I drive rather than walking everywhere because I have better things to do with my time. I ignore, rather than specifically evaluating Ayn Rand quotes because I have better things to do with my time. Oh sure, she might have accidentally said something both true and interesting every once in a while. And Mathgen[0] might accidentall…

Avoiding effort with respect to transport gets you to work faster, which is most instances is the point of transport. Avoiding effort with respect to discussing ideas gets you bias, which is the opposite of the point of discussion.

So you're basically openly saying that you are willing to comment here, without considering the perspectives being put forth that you're replying to, which at the very least seems against the spirit of HN, and more realistically is against the process of rational thought in general.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#116

Post by lttlrck » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:31 PM UTC

codex wrote: post #79

abduhl wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a portion of time where all of the lights at the intersection are red. The person you are responding to notes that as long as this portion of time is increased such that the total time that the intersection has for someone to clear it (i.e. - time that the light is yellow plus time that the lights are all red) stays the same then safety inside the intersection should not be impacted. This says nothing about…

You make an excellent point. I am worried about the case where the driver, distracted, looks away from the intersection for a second. Returning their gaze to the light, they see it red. They never observed it yellow, and thus they have no idea how long it has been red and whether or not it is safe to run the light. Perhaps this is why we have yellow to begin with--as an redundant means of clocking the time until the…

If they look away long enough to miss the yellow then, some might say, they deserve what's coming.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#117

Post by dopamean » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:33 PM UTC

joshuamerrill wrote: post #10

There's an inherent conflict of interest when cities, counties, and states rely on traffic tickets as a source of revenue. The all-too-tempting incentive is to maximize that revenue, either by abusing civil rights or, in this case, by endangering public safety.

I haven't done a study or anything but after living in Florida for 5 years (coming from New York) I have to say that the motivation seems to come from a serious lack of other revenue sources for the state. There is no state income tax and so fee revenue is huge for the state and local municipalities. A few years ago, in central Florida, voters voted to decrease property taxes. When the measure went through revenues plunged. In response all fees at the DMV were literally doubled and a lot of public employees lost their jobs. The way Florida handles paying for itself makes no sense to me.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#118

Post by maratd » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:37 PM UTC

doki_pen wrote: post #32

joshuamerrill wrote: post #10

There's an inherent conflict of interest when cities, counties, and states rely on traffic tickets as a source of revenue. The all-too-tempting incentive is to maximize that revenue, either by abusing civil rights or, in this case, by endangering public safety.

It won't necessarily endanger the public if they add more delay between one light turning red and the other turning green.

> It won't necessarily endanger the public if they add more delay between one light turning red and the other turning green.

This is usually referred to as a delayed green light. They are absolutely terrible for public safety.

There are drivers who look at the opposite light to get a cue as to when they should go.

It also pisses regular drivers off, because it looks like absolutely nothing is happening for everyone and they have to sit there and wait for no good reason. A yellow light, even a long one, at least shows some sort of activity and progress.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#119

Post by mistercow » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:39 PM UTC

ok_craig wrote: post #115

mistercow wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blind rejection is a useful heuristic, and avoiding effort is not necessarily laziness. I drive rather than walking everywhere because I have better things to do with my time. I ignore, rather than specifically evaluating Ayn Rand quotes because I have better things to do with my time. Oh sure, she might have accidentally said something both true and interesting every once in a while. And Mathgen[0] might accidentall…

Avoiding effort with respect to transport gets you to work faster, which is most instances is the point of transport. Avoiding effort with respect to discussing ideas gets you bias, which is the opposite of the point of discussion. So you're basically openly saying that you are willing to comment here, without considering the perspectives being put forth that you're replying to, which at the very least seems against…

>Avoiding effort with respect to discussing ideas gets you bias, which is the opposite of the point of discussion.

Avoiding effort with respect to discussing ideas that I can broadly (and efficiently) classify as not likely to be worthwhile gives me time to think about and discuss other ideas that are more likely to be worth my time. Does it "get me bias" if I ignore the rantings of a crazy person I see on the street?

>So you're basically openly saying that you are willing to comment here, without considering the perspectives being put forth that you're replying to, which at the very least seems against the spirit of HN, and more realistically is against the process of rational thought in general.

I didn't reply to the Ayn Rand comment. I replied to the comment about blind rejection, the perspective behind which comment I did consider.

"That's not a reply worthy of HN because it is mean and doesn't give any consideration to the topic under discussion" would have been a reasonable reply to thrownaway2424. "Blind rejection is intellectually lazy" was not.

Re: Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

#120

Post by Avenger42 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

kunai wrote: post #112

abduhl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely incorrect. Traffic lights are for vehicles. Pedestrians should be obeying the pedestrian signals and your cue to "clear the intersection" is the blinking red hand. Traffic lights do not switch to yellow until after the pedestrian signals are solid red hands. This obviously only applies where pedestrian signage exists.

Obviously, you and I live in different areas. Where I live, the traffic lights turn yellow even when the yellow light has not become solid. Then, there's also the issue that many pedestrians are still in the process of crossing when the hand turns red.

> the traffic lights turn yellow even when the yellow light has not become solid

I'm sorry, but this sentence doesn't make sense to me. Did you mean:

> the traffic lights turn yellow even when the "do-not-cross" signal is still flashing

If not, could you explain? If so, where do you live that the lights do this? I've never seen that behavior (although I'm the first to say I haven't lived many places).