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U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#211

Post by knowaveragejoe »

greatzebu wrote: post #93
madaxe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the Iranian revolution was right? The installation of countless dictators was right? Guantanamo is right? Torture is right? The US's moral compass was thrown overboard decades ago.

The moral compass that led us to slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, and Japanese internment camps? The idea that the USA was formerly moral but has given it up lately isn't really supported by history.

Simply glossing over any good that has been done fits this interpretation of history nicely.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#212

Post by Mordor »

twoodfin wrote: post #186
mathieuh wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please please please don't tell me people actually believe this. Some of the things you are saying here are laughable. I'm pretty sure people in Palestine, Korea, Chile, Cuba, Syria, Iran, Guatemala, and any other states where the USA has decided it should stick its gun in would have some choice words for you.

Korea? Seriously? If there is a clearer example of the benefits of the U.S. world role after 1945, I can't come up with it.

Mass starvation and huge prison camps, yeah I bet they're overjoyed with their US 'benefits'.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#213

Post by rayiner »

twoodfin wrote: post #187
rayiner wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that the 2nd Amendment is now incorporated, and I'm actually not a proponent of gun control. My point is that talking about how it's a "Constitutional issue" is, while technically true now, also a little misleading, in the sense that the Founders would not have considered state gun control laws to be a Federal Constitutional issue. The whole process of incorporation has been a modern attempt at redra…

You are far more knowledgeable about this than I, but wouldn't Heller suggest that the "contemporary consensus" (at least as far as SCOTUS can mold it) is that states are indeed constrained from instituting what amount to gun bans, no matter how popular they might be locally? You already acknowledged that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated, so I'm sure I just don't follow the point you're making with the hypothetical.

Right, I agree. The point of my alternate hypothetical is to get to the fact that incorporation of the 2nd amendment rests on contemporary consensus, rather than centuries old Constitutional dictate. If that contemporary concensus did not exist, you couldn't fall back to a "the Founders intended" argument.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#214

Post by knowaveragejoe »

CurtMonash wrote: post #205
speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

The US has for many decades been either the most powerful entity in the world, or close to being such. As such, it has both been one of the greatest forces for good in the world and one of the greatest forces for evil. That latter point should not be forgotten, even by those who think -- as I do -- that the evil is far outweighed by the good.

This. There is a remarkable amount of bandwagoning in this thread to bash anything vaguely pro-American followed by some self-congratulatory posts about people today "not knowing history". That goes both ways, people.

The US has done an immeasurable amount of good in the world over the years, for example the US is by far and away the largest donor of foreign aid in the world and has been for a long time. I think most people are angry that what the country represents at face value is not always reflected in policy or actions. That's fine. Get involved and do something about it.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#215

Post by refurb »

vacri wrote: post #166
encoderer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. The world in the 18th century was not -- and today still is not -- able to grow and nurture a powerful country towards "absolute moral good." The world is still a primitive and dangerous place full of despots at worst in inequality at be…

And yet when approached by Ho Chi Minh in the late 40s about supporting the end of colonial rule in Vietnam and instituting a constitution similar to the US's, the US decided to reinforce French dominion instead. The American Revolution was indeed a watershed moment in history, but it can't be claimed that everything descended from it is inherently an action towards freedom and democracy.

History is important.

After WW2, the US wanted a united front against the USSR. France used their membership in a Western European military alliance as a bargaining chip for the recapture of their Indochina colonies.

The US felt supporting France in Indochina was a lesser evil than letting Western Europe fall to Soviets.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#216

Post by twoodfin »

Mordor wrote: post #212
twoodfin wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Korea? Seriously? If there is a clearer example of the benefits of the U.S. world role after 1945, I can't come up with it.

Mass starvation and huge prison camps, yeah I bet they're overjoyed with their US 'benefits'.

I don't think you have a clear understanding of just which competing hegemonies ended up influencing which parts of Korea...

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#217

Post by thecoffman »

Mordor wrote: post #212
twoodfin wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Korea? Seriously? If there is a clearer example of the benefits of the U.S. world role after 1945, I can't come up with it.

Mass starvation and huge prison camps, yeah I bet they're overjoyed with their US 'benefits'.

I'm assuming he means South Korea.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#218

Post by hga »

sageikosa wrote: post #207
rayiner wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree that the 2nd Amendment is now incorporated, and I'm actually not a proponent of gun control. My point is that talking about how it's a "Constitutional issue" is, while technically true now, also a little misleading, in the sense that the Founders would not have considered state gun control laws to be a Federal Constitutional issue. The whole process of incorporation has been a modern attempt at redra…

To be fair to the Founders, they would not have expected the states to ban guns, as their historical context was that the states needed citizens to have guns to be reasonably certain they (the states) could deal with threats; not least of which was "foreign invasion" like the War of Independence. At the time of the ratification of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the states were more concerned with a central (and…

Just got my revised and updated edition of Halbrook's groundbreaking That Every Man Be Armed, and on pages 69-70 he confirms that prior to the conditional ratification of the Constitution, 7 of the 13 states had declarations acknowledging the RKBA, and 2 that didn't "later demanded protection for the right to keep and bear arms in the new federal Constitution."

He goes on to add that "with the defeat of the British [for whom gun grabbing was a major strategy and what sparked the war], no one feared that the natural and common-law right to have arms was any longer in danger."

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#219

Post by srumple »

oinksoft wrote: post #112
rayiner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

as far as global hegemons go, the U.S. is the most benevolent such entity in the history of the world. Well, that's some real comfort. You heard it here, better than the Roman and British empires! The reference point should be absolute moral good, not third-world dictatorships. The whole "city on a hill" idea and what have you. That is what the top-level comment is getting at: Blatant hypocrisy from a state whose den…

>The reference point should be absolute moral good

This is absolutely correct. However, that also applies to the rest of the world. So, what problem do we fix first? The USA's possibly illegal wiretapping, or state caused disappearances, state encouraged suicide bombings (on civilian targets), political prisoners, slavery, nuclear weapon development, attempted genocide?

So, yeah, "greatest country on Earth" or greatest nation in history" may be going a bit far. But from what I can see, we should take care of the more egregious human rights issues first. It is the Law of Diminishing Returns. Preventing illegal wiretapping provides margin return compared to stopping the bloodshed in Syria.

If we're going to have a discussion on how America is not a good nation, we do need to keep it in perspective, and build a priority list for how things in the world should change.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#220

Post by greedo »

alan_cx wrote: post #198
OGinparadise wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short answer: As bad as US is, you should see the other countries. If a US cope beats you, you most likely hit the lottery, in other countries if they didn't beat you, you hit the lottery. The rest of your examples are oversimplifications. What if US didn't exist and tyrants didn't fear anyone? How many local if not world wars would we have? As for oil, US lost trillions fighting Iraq and Afghan war, not sure what yo…

It may well be foolish, but many peoples support tyrants out of fear of the US. They think the "strong" tyrant will protect them from the US. On the other hand, allies of the US, like my country, seem to bend over backwards to accommodate US demands, reasonable or otherwise. So, you can sort of see the point of supporting a tyrant, or strong government. Also, didn't Bush threaten democratic Pakistan with a bombing ba…

You lost me when you wrote "democratic Pakistan."
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