U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#201

Post by vacri » Tue, May 14, 2013, 10:15 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #176

encoderer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. The world in the 18th century was not -- and today still is not -- able to grow and nurture a powerful country towards "absolute moral good." The world is still a primitive and dangerous place full of despots at worst in inequality at be…

It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. Switzerland has been a republic since 1523 at the latest, 1291 at the earliest. The Most Serene Republic of Venice was founded in 421 and lasted more than 1500 years. But France has a much, much better claim than either to have founded t…

Proto-republic ideas can also be seen in the formation of the Holy Roman Empire - a large collection of independent states with a loose body for oversight, in which the states have a say in how it's selected.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#202

Post by _wwz4 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 11:15 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #104

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution

You beat that drum all the time. I don't understand how anyone reasonably informed could ignore the weekly violations of the Constitution by the US Government.

The Constitution itself was intended to place very strict limits on the size and scope of the Federal Government. Its spirit as well as the letter of its rules have been almost totally breached. If the Constitution would be adhered to, we wouldn't have that monstrosity in Washington wrecking everything it touches.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#203

Post by astine » Tue, May 14, 2013, 12:09 PM UTC

nkassis wrote: post #193

smutticus wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. Chill with the historical revisionism. The American revolution was a very important historical event. But it was NOT the first example of a western Republican government. Both The Netherlands and Switzerland preceded it. The process of…

I was under the impression and correct me if I'm wrong that the French revolution was much inspired by the American revolution.

You are not wrong. The French revolutionaries did take inspiration (and occasionally direct support) from the American revolution. So did the Italian unification which named streets in Rome for George Washington. Even in England the revolution saw the first election of a Liberal government.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#204

Post by astine » Tue, May 14, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

Volpe wrote: post #183

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you distinguish between options at the voting booths, if not by their policies? You distinguish their policies when their policies are distinct. Obama hasn't closed Gitmo. Obama hasn't ended the warrantless wiretapping program. Obama hasn't discontinued the TPP negotiations or brought any useful transparency to the process. Obama hasn't refused to sign any budget unless it includes significant cuts to defense…

Why was the contest only between Romney and Obama? Why do you have to be uber wealthy to run in a country ruled "by the people"? The U.S's primary problem seems to be that it has transformed into (or perhaps always was) a corporate run oligarchy. Except it walks around saying it's a democratic republic... The newspeak runs so deep, that what I say is controversial, despite being quite factual... it's very saddening (…

"Why was the contest only between Romney and Obama?"

This is why: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post#Effect_on_p...

"Why do you have to be uber wealthy to run in a country ruled "by the people"?"

Because of the logistical costs of running an election. Though, technically, you don't need to be uber-wealthy, you just need enough donors. Obama is not that wealthy.

"The U.S's primary problem seems to be that it has transformed into (or perhaps always was) a corporate run oligarchy. Except it walks around saying it's a democratic republic..."

It's not an oligarchy. There's a perception that wealth is what give people a political voice but that's only true up to a point. Yes, you need money to run a newspaper, buy campaign ads, or higher a lobbyist, but that's true in any country (that allows those things.) But the fact is that politics is quite a bit more subtle. US politics is driven primarily by groups of extremely dedicated voters who vote narrowly on an a small range of cultural issues which they perceive as moral issues and upon which they cannot compromise: guns, abortion, marriage. This leads to some ridiculous factionalism, which means subtler issues get ignored.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#205

Post by CurtMonash » Tue, May 14, 2013, 12:30 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

The US has for many decades been either the most powerful entity in the world, or close to being such. As such, it has both been one of the greatest forces for good in the world and one of the greatest forces for evil. That latter point should not be forgotten, even by those who think -- as I do -- that the evil is far outweighed by the good.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#206

Post by hga » Tue, May 14, 2013, 12:43 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #156

hga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errrm, isn't it the case that the default is that a Swiss citizen can own guns? Which is the default for 2/3rds of the US population, and includes permanent resident aliens. I know there are significant cultural differences, but when you come down to it, does the government trust the people or not? This is the touchstone for that question.

No, it's not 'the touchstone' for the question. It's a massive oversimplification to claim it's only or fundamentally about governmental trust. You hand-wave away the cultural differences, but they are highly significant when comparing the Swiss and the American experience of firearms held by the public.

Without answering my question about it being a default, you're misstating my position. Let me try again:

The touchstone of whether a government trusts it people is allowing them to keep and bear arms without conditions besides the usual disbarments for criminals and the seriously mentally ill.

This is only tangentially related to their actually doing so and why. 14-17% of American gunowners (if you assume there are only 75 million, which I think is low) do so at least to hunt. In Western Europe that's obviously a lot more limited due to population density. In Switzerland, a max of 600,000 or so can be issued the current service rifle (because that's how many were manufactured...) and serve in any capacity including the reserves, which by tradition is structured differently (e.g. personal weapon stored at home).

The best source I can find now for a relevant quote from John McPhee's La Place de la Concorde Suisse, written back in 1984 when this was very significant, is "Communist Swiss soldiers keep rifles and machine guns at home. It is said that this is not dangerous for political purposes; it is dangerous only for the wife."

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#207

Post by sageikosa » Tue, May 14, 2013, 1:19 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #70

gyardley wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell, I'm not sure the Second Amendment was fully incorporated against the states until McDonald v. Chicago in 2010. Doesn't matter a bit to me, though - it's incorporated now.

I don't disagree that the 2nd Amendment is now incorporated, and I'm actually not a proponent of gun control. My point is that talking about how it's a "Constitutional issue" is, while technically true now, also a little misleading, in the sense that the Founders would not have considered state gun control laws to be a Federal Constitutional issue. The whole process of incorporation has been a modern attempt at redra…

To be fair to the Founders, they would not have expected the states to ban guns, as their historical context was that the states needed citizens to have guns to be reasonably certain they (the states) could deal with threats; not least of which was "foreign invasion" like the War of Independence. At the time of the ratification of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the states were more concerned with a central (and remote) government having too much power over them than they were with its citizens running amok.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#208

Post by rayiner » Tue, May 14, 2013, 1:30 PM UTC

_wwz4 wrote: post #202

rayiner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution You beat that drum all the time. I don't understand how anyone reasonably informed could ignore the weekly violations of the Constitution by the US Government. The Constitution itself was intended to place very strict limits on the size and scope of the Federal Government. Its spirit as well as the letter of its rules have been almost totally breached. If the Const…

I'm fairly well informed, having read and studied the Constitution in different contexts throughout law school. The difference between you and me, I imagine, is more fundamental than who is "informed" or not:

"The Constitution itself was intended to place very strict limits on the size and scope of the Federal Government."

In fact, there was no single intention in creating the Constitution. Roughly there were two factions (though both wanted a stronger federal government than what existed at the time). The conflict between the two was largely resolved during the founding generation or very soon after--the "powerful federal government" forces' interpretation of the Constitution won, in Congress and the Supreme Court. The Civil War and the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendment cemented that interpretation at the point of a sword.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#209

Post by rahoulb » Tue, May 14, 2013, 1:45 PM UTC

smutticus wrote: post #185

encoderer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. The world in the 18th century was not -- and today still is not -- able to grow and nurture a powerful country towards "absolute moral good." The world is still a primitive and dangerous place full of despots at worst in inequality at be…

> It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. Chill with the historical revisionism. The American revolution was a very important historical event. But it was NOT the first example of a western Republican government. Both The Netherlands and Switzerland preceded it. The process of…

England was governed exclusively by parliament (although the king remained in title only) in the 13th Century, and became a true republic after the English Civil War in 1649 (although only for a decade).

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#210

Post by knowaveragejoe » Tue, May 14, 2013, 1:45 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #173

rayiner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

The most benevolent murderer, pillager, and global tyrant in history. What a noble distinction! Humanity can do better than that, and your comment is frankly sickening in its moral complacency. This must be how engineers who help build nukes and drones and surveillance systems rationalize to themselves so they can sleep at night.

Humanity sure can! Now, let's see it in action somewhere with as many people and as much economic activity...