U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#181

Post by encoderer » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:39 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #166

encoderer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. The world in the 18th century was not -- and today still is not -- able to grow and nurture a powerful country towards "absolute moral good." The world is still a primitive and dangerous place full of despots at worst in inequality at be…

And yet when approached by Ho Chi Minh in the late 40s about supporting the end of colonial rule in Vietnam and instituting a constitution similar to the US's, the US decided to reinforce French dominion instead. The American Revolution was indeed a watershed moment in history, but it can't be claimed that everything descended from it is inherently an action towards freedom and democracy.

Nobody ever claimed that it was.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#182

Post by X-Istence » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:47 AM UTC

OGinparadise wrote: post #170

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

Short answer: As bad as US is, you should see the other countries. If a US cope beats you, you most likely hit the lottery, in other countries if they didn't beat you, you hit the lottery. The rest of your examples are oversimplifications. What if US didn't exist and tyrants didn't fear anyone? How many local if not world wars would we have? As for oil, US lost trillions fighting Iraq and Afghan war, not sure what yo…

This argument of "Look at everyone else, we aren't so bad" is a absolutely terrible argument. It means fuck all.

Shouldn't the US be showing how it is supposed to be done? Shouldn't the US be the one that is holding itself to the highest standards?

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#183

Post by Volpe » Tue, May 14, 2013, 6:48 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #165

dsuth wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you don't vote for the guy with the better hair, do you? How do you distinguish between options at the voting booths, if not by their policies? I'm sorry, but that blows my mind.

>How do you distinguish between options at the voting booths, if not by their policies? You distinguish their policies when their policies are distinct. Obama hasn't closed Gitmo. Obama hasn't ended the warrantless wiretapping program. Obama hasn't discontinued the TPP negotiations or brought any useful transparency to the process. Obama hasn't refused to sign any budget unless it includes significant cuts to defense…

Why was the contest only between Romney and Obama?

Why do you have to be uber wealthy to run in a country ruled "by the people"?

The U.S's primary problem seems to be that it has transformed into (or perhaps always was) a corporate run oligarchy. Except it walks around saying it's a democratic republic...

The newspeak runs so deep, that what I say is controversial, despite being quite factual... it's very saddening (if you care about such things).

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#184

Post by smutticus » Tue, May 14, 2013, 7:05 AM UTC

speeder wrote: post #53

I am from Brazil, and I must ask: Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom, when US ignores its own constitution, takes away freedom from its citizens, and most important to me, takes away freedom from citizens of other countries while claiming to do the exact opposite? I am from Brazil, and many people here remember the US backed (and enforced sometimes) rightwing government tha…

>Why the US citizens and government propaganda insists that US is about freedom,

I'm a US citizen and I don't go around spouting this nonsense. Please realize that there are many Americans who would agree with much of what you're saying. Please also realize that many USians are terribly ignorant of the many things their government has done in their name around the world.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#185

Post by smutticus » Tue, May 14, 2013, 7:16 AM UTC

encoderer wrote: post #152

oinksoft wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as far as global hegemons go, the U.S. is the most benevolent such entity in the history of the world. Well, that's some real comfort. You heard it here, better than the Roman and British empires! The reference point should be absolute moral good, not third-world dictatorships. The whole "city on a hill" idea and what have you. That is what the top-level comment is getting at: Blatant hypocrisy from a state whose den…

It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule. The world in the 18th century was not -- and today still is not -- able to grow and nurture a powerful country towards "absolute moral good." The world is still a primitive and dangerous place full of despots at worst in inequality at be…

> It's easy to forget that the American Revolution is what ignited the fire of liberty and republican ethos, and catalyzed all of today's democracies to end or augment monarchial rule.

Chill with the historical revisionism. The American revolution was a very important historical event. But it was NOT the first example of a western Republican government. Both The Netherlands and Switzerland preceded it. The process of moving the west away from monarchic rule was a long one with many important steps along the way. One of these was the American revolution. Which IMO was less influential than the French revolution in ending monarchy.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#186

Post by twoodfin » Tue, May 14, 2013, 7:20 AM UTC

mathieuh wrote: post #179

rayiner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little of this is actually true, at least with regards to what the U.S. does internally. As flawed as the U.S. government is, it's still better than almost any government outside Western Europe, and is in some ways better than governments in Western Europe (e.g. with regard to free speech), though worse in others. The U.S. government very rarely ignores the Constitution, although many things it does are greeted…

Please please please don't tell me people actually believe this. Some of the things you are saying here are laughable. I'm pretty sure people in Palestine, Korea, Chile, Cuba, Syria, Iran, Guatemala, and any other states where the USA has decided it should stick its gun in would have some choice words for you.

Korea? Seriously? If there is a clearer example of the benefits of the U.S. world role after 1945, I can't come up with it.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#187

Post by twoodfin » Tue, May 14, 2013, 7:32 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #70

gyardley wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell, I'm not sure the Second Amendment was fully incorporated against the states until McDonald v. Chicago in 2010. Doesn't matter a bit to me, though - it's incorporated now.

I don't disagree that the 2nd Amendment is now incorporated, and I'm actually not a proponent of gun control. My point is that talking about how it's a "Constitutional issue" is, while technically true now, also a little misleading, in the sense that the Founders would not have considered state gun control laws to be a Federal Constitutional issue. The whole process of incorporation has been a modern attempt at redra…

You are far more knowledgeable about this than I, but wouldn't Heller suggest that the "contemporary consensus" (at least as far as SCOTUS can mold it) is that states are indeed constrained from instituting what amount to gun bans, no matter how popular they might be locally?

You already acknowledged that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated, so I'm sure I just don't follow the point you're making with the hypothetical.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#188

Post by twoodfin » Tue, May 14, 2013, 7:35 AM UTC

beedogs wrote: post #66

USA is becoming Germany circa 1934.

hn is becoming reddit circa 2007.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#189

Post by pbz » Tue, May 14, 2013, 7:41 AM UTC

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #148

madaxe wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how to wring profits from other countries at any cost You're evidently not familiar with the concept of lobbying.

>> There's almost certainly near no magical evil council sitting atop it all scheming about how to wring profits from other countries at any cost You're evidently not familiar with the concept of lobbying. Clearly neither are you. It's not like there's one big magic evil lobby firm that tries to suppress everything in your best interest.....

No, there isn't one, there are many, and they lobby for their benefit. If that interest happens to benefit the general population then great, otherwise they keep quiet or they run campaigns to try convince you kill yourself for your own good.

Re: U.S. Secretly Obtains Two Months of A.P. Phone Records

#190

Post by codex » Tue, May 14, 2013, 7:49 AM UTC

obstacle1 wrote: post #180

codex wrote: post #175

The U.S. did not secretly obtain these records. It notified the AP that these records were obtained using a valid subpoena, which by law needs to be approved by the attorney general. Subpoenas of phone records happens all the time in both criminal investigations and civil cases. This is just the AP using the propaganda power of its infinite supply of ink to attempt to protect itself from criminal investigations. Cong…

It isn't as cut-and-dry as you're pretending. The AP's complaint is that the records obtained were unreasonably broad in scope, which goes against the DoJ's guidelines w/r/t news subpoenas. >Rules published by the Justice Department require that subpoenas of records of news organizations must be personally approved by the attorney general, but it was not known if that happened in this case. The letter notifying AP th…

"Presumably the reporters who wrote this article should have been able to gather this information (since the article is itself written by the AP)."

This sums it up--the reporters who wrote this article are the ones whose records were subpoenaed. Classic conflict of interest, but the AP does not recuse themselves from writing this story. Thus, I cannot trust anything that they say. Facts are "unknown"? They will be if it helps the AP spread FUD. Subpoena is too broad? Says who--why, the AP, of course.

From what I can tell, the subpoena covers the five reporters involved in the article under investigation, plus all the communal phone lines used by all reporters in the office, lest reporters try to cover their tracks by using a phone that's not on their desk. That doesn't sound unusually broad to me.