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Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

blogs.law.harvard.edu

91–100 of 112 posts

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#91
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Whether you agree or disagree with one side or the other, context is often relevant. Is it really, in this case? If Greenspun was a Neo-Nazi who was serving time for killing 12 people, would it really have changed the content of this review? I understand it would probably colour your perception of him, and certainly that's what the OP was going for, but I still think that this review stands on its own.

I haven't actually read this review, it's not something that interested me, but I do find that (for better or for worse) I judge content on its author. Yes, if he was a Neo-Nazi who had killed 12 people, it would make me lose respect for his opinions.

Alright. Do you want to go and research Philip Greenspun before you decide whether or not you agree with his review?

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#92
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ayn rand inanity

Are you seriously (and erroneously) conflating libertarianism with Ayn Rand's Objectivism? And do you honestly think that, should someone have libertarian political views, we should disregard their opinion?

I just answered your question; I didn't endorse disregarding his opinion.

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#93

Yeah, for me, this review points to a bigger picture issue. Why is the tech / startup scene so easily lured in by establishment values? Of course there are exceptions, Fog Creek's articles about their compensation policy comes to mind, but very little of the egalitarian ethos that made hacking so cool survives in the way people talk and write about working in tech. Corporate long-hours and ladder climbing ambition? W…

As below, thanks for saying all this. I often wonder what the bloody hell happened to the hacker-ethic and hacker-aesthetic that had drawn me towards tech in the first place.

It's getting very close to flipping my switch for, "Burn it all down and start over."

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#94
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different kinds of assholes and bullies. Also, they aren't the same thing. The boss who loses his temper a lot but doesn't engage in prolonged campaigns of harassment is the archetypical "asshole" boss, but not a bully. People realize he's a "Volcano" (see here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/gervais-macle... ) and his credibility drops, so he is really only a danger to himself after a while…

> I worked for one of these at Google. I just want to remind anyone reading this that there are many sides to any story. I am truly impressed by how much mileage the parent poster has gotten from his negative experience at Google, but I think it would be a grave mistake to take his claims at face value.

I am truly impressed by how much mileage the parent poster has gotten from his negative experience at Google

Are you fucking kidding me? I would be far ahead of where I am right now if I hadn't had that misadventure. That spell (and its aftermath, including the horrible startup where I landed afterward) took 3 years off my career, easily.

HN karma doesn't come close to buying that back. I'm still owed.

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#95
post #31

This is utterly devastating and long overdue. Sandberg makes $845 million in a year (at a company she didn't found), lives a charmed life, and is promoted aggressively by men...yet has managed to convince herself that the world is/was biased against women. But even Greenspan is prevented by polite convention from making the obvious point: women and men have different chromosomal structures, lifespans, organs, and hor…

yet has managed to convince herself that the world is/was biased against women. Wait, are you saying it isn't/wasn't?

I think his point is not that the world isn't biased against women, it's just that it's obviously not biased against Sandberg, so it's surprising that she's so confident in preaching about this bias.

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#96
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yet has managed to convince herself that the world is/was biased against women. Wait, are you saying it isn't/wasn't?

I'll say it. It isn't and wasn't and if anything is biased against men . Details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA http://owningyourshit.blogspot.co.uk/

OMG you're so right!

I never noticed before that in the vast majority of societies throughout history and today men are effectively second class citizens. Remember how long it took for men to get the vote! And how in some cultures men are effectively the property of their wives! And there are those religious courts where they simply state that a man's statement doesn't count for as much as a woman's statement!

I've got a million of these. It doesn't matter how many long-winded, carefully constructed points to the contrary are raised; every day I see women ignored, overlooked, and unconsciously stepped around in a way that happens far, far less frequently to men. The very fact that the counter-argument has to be carefully constructed is itself damning when compared to the simplicity and ease of verifying what it opposes.

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#97

This is so embarrassingly bad...it starts bad, and then gets worse... examples: He discredits one of Sandberg's scientifically verified claims that women take criticism worse than men, by referencing "as John Ioannidis notes, “Most Published Research Findings are False.” Yet he begins his review with a US News report: "This US News article describes research that found that, among college graduates, left-handed men e…

In the quote about right-handed men, I think you missed the following parenthetical phrase: "(and as noted below (Ioannidis), this result is itself probably false)"? It's not (A and ~A), it's the same thing in both statements (i.e. published studies aren't reliable).

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#98
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll say it. It isn't and wasn't and if anything is biased against men . Details here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA http://owningyourshit.blogspot.co.uk/

OMG you're so right! I never noticed before that in the vast majority of societies throughout history and today men are effectively second class citizens. Remember how long it took for men to get the vote! And how in some cultures men are effectively the property of their wives! And there are those religious courts where they simply state that a man's statement doesn't count for as much as a woman's statement! I've g…

No, she carefully constructs her counter arguments so as not to make stupid mistakes like you just did.

About women being the "property" of their husbands, that's because the husband was liable for the wife's crimes, due to Coverture, which she covers here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=J...

About the vote: some men had it, men didn't have it, in Anglo countries. Then it was given to all men as a sop because men could be press-ganged. So going to war and dying in a filthy trench based on some politician's whim became the "price of citizenship".

But women got the vote without getting the draft that came with it. Yeah and she covers that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHvcFzzUues

She's got logic and facts. You've got ... sarcasm and assertions. Good luck with that.

Now if you still think men have such a good deal, I suggest you try going through a nasty divorce and then get back to me.

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#99
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't link to actual molecular genetic research on behavior and sex differences. I will. Let's do two quick examples. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/science/studying-recent-hu... Gaining a deep insight into human evolution, researchers have identified a mutation in a critical human gene as the source of several distinctive traits that make East Asians different from other races. The traits — thicker hair shaft…

I try to keep an open mind, but I am finding it difficult to get past your tone. I find people as confident and dismissive as you appear to be, are the crackpots who are not worth my time. You don't have anything in your HN profile either. But you also went to the trouble to provide references, so I am confused and want to learn more. Are you seriously suggesting its a Sisyphean task to teach women maths or business…

  Have you heard of stereotype threat enough to convince 
  someone who believes in it?
Well, stereotype threat has actually been debunked. I encourage you to read this full pdf, including Steele and Aronson's response and Sackett/Hardison/Cullen's reply:

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/ogandy/C45405%20resources/Sacke...

  I find people as confident and dismissive
This is a matter of perception. From my vantage point, people who don't know much about genetics, neuroscience, biochemistry and the like are extraordinarily confident in dismissing the influence of hard scientific evidence in favor of the wishful thinking and hand-waving of much less rigorous sociological disciplines.

  I don't think the parent was even suggesting it was 100%  
  cultural effect either. 
See above: jackowayed himself notes that people with an alternative opinion are "berated". Only on the internet can the facts about genetics even be stated without character assassination. And then, and only then, the backpedal starts from a 100% cultural to a "50/50" position.

Who knows what the split is? How can we know? Gene-culture environment interaction is so complex. And what about _epistasis_.

But "we don't know" is not the position that Sandberg takes. And of course, if the position is actually not 100/0 then these gaps can never be fully closed [even if this were desirable], and this resilient inequality is not the fault of men but of Nature itself. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think "the gap can never be closed" is a position you would subscribe to (let alone jackowayed or Sandberg herself). So yeah, I think it's fair to characterize the conventional wisdom as a 100% social constructionist position, which executes a tactical rhetorical fallback when confronted with overwhelming fact...changing not one iota in its policy prescriptions, which are still in the main comprised of struggle sessions at places like Facebook HQ.

  Whereas you seem to suggest its 100% genetic, which would 
  preclude the possibility of any woman having better spatial 
  abilities than any man
You know, there's something about this topic which makes people unable to reason statistically. Obviously there are tall women and short men. Obviously there are Emmy Noethers. That's just not where the averages or medians are. I mentioned Lisa Leslie and Cheryl Miller; y'all really think people who know what item-response theory is aren't intimately familiar with the concept of overlapping Gaussians...maybe even more so than people who blanche at the very thought of Bell Curves?

But overlap isn't equality.

Re: Philip Greenspun Reviews “Lean In”

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. I guess I got the gist that you've expressed. That makes me feel a little better, thanks. That last sentence was the puzzler.

Here's the point of the last sentence, which I had to read a few times as well: When she was 27 years old, a man hired her to be Chief of Staff for the United States Secretary of the Treasury. What, if women were in charge, she'd have not been biased against and gotten that job when she was 17 instead?

AHA! Thank you. It finally clicked.
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