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Vim Adventures

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Re: Vim Adventures

#51

Post by klibertp »

gnosis wrote: post #37
johncoltrane wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you completely missed the parent's and my point. hjkl are only marginally better than the arrows: kkkk is just as silly as and their only benefit is in not moving the right hand to the arrow keys at the beginning and end of the sequence. Other than that hitting k 4 times to move the cursor 4 lines above doesn't offer much that the arrows don't. 4k is obviously better but yeah, it also works with the ar…

The other movement commands you mention aren't "better" than the hjkl keys. They are very useful, but accomplish different things. For example, the h key moves one character left. Those other movement keys aren't going to do that for you except in special circumstances. That said, no one is suggesting that in vim the only movement keys one should use are hjkl. Those other movement keys you mention are also very impor…

"It's like the difference between touch typing vs hunt and peck typing. Some people are actually quite fast hunt and peck typers. But a touch typist will feel nothing but pity for all the energy they waste hunting and pecking when they could be comfortably and leisurely typing by touch."

You realize that you just offended me? I "hunt and peck" 80 wpm and am quite comfortable with it, thank you. It's enough for me.

Also I'd like to see some proof for oh that faster hjkl versus arrows, especially on non-standard keyboard where the distance is much closer.

Re: Vim Adventures

#52

Post by klibertp »

rickhanlonii wrote: post #44
johncoltrane wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck, I just lost 20 fucking minutes of typing. What's with that stupid "link expired" bullshit? Whatever, I had a nice demonstration where the same simple task used 39 keypresses with only k + h, 9 keypresses with k + b and only 5-6 keypresses with a backward search. After that, the last paragraph went something like this: "hjkl have their place in our arsenal, obviously, but focusing on them like if they were the a…

Next time, at least in Chrome, you can hit the back button to return to the page you were at with your text in tact. But, you probably wasted your time anyway because no one is disputing with you that you that there are quicker ways to navigate in Vim than exclusive use of hjkl. The argument is that there is a place for them in navigation, and that using them over the arrow keys keeps your hands on the home row allow…

I said "useless", but only because johncoltrane said "worthless" earlier :) But I understand it as "learn to be effective with other movement commands, don't concentrate on hjkl" - and that was my message too.

Anyway, I don't know whether arrows are faster or not. For me they most probably wouldn't, for some people they could be. However, for me right now, when I know and use other commands much more than arrows/hjkl, learning the former would be simply a case of diminishing returns.

I think that proficient use of vi-style keybinding means that movements by one letter are the rarest ones. I don't know, but I feel that I don't use them more that a few times per hour at most. I have macros, scripts and !programs to use, not to mention other movements. And besides, look - Emacs doesn't have hjkl, has wWetc. and is not slower than VIM! (except with startup).

Also I think that insisting on hjkl efficiency even without any proof is not the best thing to do to attract more users to VIM ;)

Re: Vim Adventures

#54

Post by milesf »

spajus wrote: post #21
manifesto wrote: post #16

What about the folks using Dvorak keyboard??

Read here: http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Using_Vim_with_the_Dvorak_keyboard... Are there many guys using Dvorak? I only met one in my whole life.

One of the top Ruby User Groups in the world has a large number of Dvorak users. I mimicked them and posted about it on Slashdot years ago: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/07/04/15/0043237/is-dvorak-gai...

Re: Vim Adventures

#55

Post by johncoltrane »

rickhanlonii wrote: post #48
johncoltrane wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The back button didn't keep my text. My original comment was only about hjkl vs motions: I didn't bring arrows in the discussion, the parent did. Also my claim was: > hjkl are almost worthless compared to other means of navigation and I stand by it. I didn't write "hjkl are useless" or advocate the use of arrows vs hjkl, IIRC. hjkl are better than the arrows for short range movements but those short range movements (…

I apologize, I did confuse you with the other commentator. Everyone agrees that using w to move a word at a time is better than llllllll. No one is arguing with you about that. So in that sense, we all agree that for certain movements, hjkl really is worthless compared to alternatives. But if you want to move a few characters, there's no better option than hljk. Second best are the arrow keys. But there's really no r…

Yes, moving by a few characters is indeed best done with hjkl if you touch type.

But the vast majority of movements we do doesn't belong to that category. In a day, I'll do a hundred or a thousand more long range movements and I argue that these long range movements are those that deserve optimization the most. Going back a few words is better done with bbb and (probably) a couple of l than 20 or so h and IMO insisting on new users to disable the arrow keys to learn hjkl is way beside the mark and horribly myopic.

Using hjkl instead of the arrows is better but the gain is ridiculous compared to what you get with motions: if you replace a thousand of arrows with a thousand of hjkl you get a small benefit; if you replace a thousand of hjkl or arrows with a hundred of bw and co. you get a huge benefit. Learning hjkl gets so much emphasis for so little usefulness…

So yeah, hjkl are almost worthless compared to other means of navigation. For a huge percentage of the actual movements we do all day long.

Re: Vim Adventures

#56

Post by rickhanlonii »

klibertp wrote: post #52
rickhanlonii wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Next time, at least in Chrome, you can hit the back button to return to the page you were at with your text in tact. But, you probably wasted your time anyway because no one is disputing with you that you that there are quicker ways to navigate in Vim than exclusive use of hjkl. The argument is that there is a place for them in navigation, and that using them over the arrow keys keeps your hands on the home row allow…

I said "useless", but only because johncoltrane said "worthless" earlier :) But I understand it as "learn to be effective with other movement commands, don't concentrate on hjkl" - and that was my message too. Anyway, I don't know whether arrows are faster or not. For me they most probably wouldn't, for some people they could be. However, for me right now, when I know and use other commands much more than arrows/hjkl…

That's certainly fair. I wasn't trying to come off as a hjkl evangelist, I just thought that the terms 'worthless' and 'useless' were way too strong to support.

I guess I misunderstood the point you guys were making, because I certainly agree that someone learning Vim should learn to be effective with other movement commands, and not concentrate on hjkl. The value of Vim is not just being able to move around text with a standard one character up/down/left/right movement, hands on home row or not.

Re: Vim Adventures

#57

Post by joelhooks »

johncoltrane wrote: post #13

Hahaha… Vim adventures again. People, if you are curious about Vim, just run the command below if you are on any UNIX-y machine: $ vimtutor That's really all you need. If you don't have Vim installed, just install it and run vimtutor anyway. Once you have got the basics right, no bullshit payware game or online drillings or online interactive tutorials will help you improve your skills. Only your accumulated experien…

You're most definitely my favorite VIM curmudgeon.

Re: Vim Adventures

#58

Post by johncoltrane »

joelhooks wrote: post #57
johncoltrane wrote: post #13

Hahaha… Vim adventures again. People, if you are curious about Vim, just run the command below if you are on any UNIX-y machine: $ vimtutor That's really all you need. If you don't have Vim installed, just install it and run vimtutor anyway. Once you have got the basics right, no bullshit payware game or online drillings or online interactive tutorials will help you improve your skills. Only your accumulated experien…

You're most definitely my favorite VIM curmudgeon.

Thanks.
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