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US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

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Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#151

Post by hga »

smsm42 wrote: post #146
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you kidding? Airport security breaches are so commonplace that they don't always merit news coverage anymore. Here, another TSA pen-test failure. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/08/us-usa-security-ai... These are just the ones we hear about, and don't include incidences of undetected contraband carried by passengers, unwittingly and intentionally.

So the argument is that since you already can bring a real bomb into the airport, creating one-shot un-concealable weapon that is useless in any practical scenario is a huge security threat requiring the government to ignore both 1st and 2nd amendment because of it? Could you expand this argument a little more, I don't see how exactly it plays out.

Check out its namesake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator

There have been plenty of "practical scenarios" where access to very minimal handguns has been used to gain access to more. E.g. handguns were quite significant in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

And its certainly concealable; a bit thick for my tastes, but otherwise almost every time I walk out the door I'm carrying concealed a 4" barrel standard length magazine M1911, which is not a whole lot different in the other dimensions, and plenty of people are able to conceal revolvers with thick cylinders or semi-auto handguns with double stack magazines.

Have you ever personally carried concealed?

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#152

Post by rollo_tommasi »

smsm42 wrote: post #148
rollo_tommasi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so silly. If the country ever comes to the point where only you and your 3D printed gun stand between freedom and the government's tyranny, you'll just be obliterated by a Predator drone. Advances in and proliferation of 3D guns will only endanger innocent citizens. Thinking that it's any kind of check on government power is a childish fantasy.

This stupid argument is reiterated again and again and doesn't become less stupid. There are about 100 millions of gun owners in the country. Do you think any government can wage war with 100 million armed citizens, drones or not? Do you read newspapers, do you know how successful the war in any territory where the population is hostile, noncooperative and armed? Do you think US tried to find local allies in Afganist…

Buddy, if it ever comes to pass that fully 1/3 of the population rises up in armed rebellion against the government, equipped with the kind of military-grade weaponry and foreign backing that sustained the Afghan/Iraqi insurgencies, then the USA has become a dystopian warlord state and freedom and democracy are dead letters for the next dozen generations.

Get real. These kinds of justifications are just completely absurd fantasies, for people who want to picture themselves as the heroes of another "Red Dawn" remake.

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#153

Post by smsm42 »

jaibot wrote: post #99
stelonix wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand from you (and most anti-3D-printed-guns) is why you think it should be controlled in the first place? Even if you somehow found a compelling argument, the kind of control you're asking for is impossible . It's like trying to stop piracy with DRM: you're gonna piss off users and someone is just going to break your "controlled environment" in the end.

But you'll still stop _most instances_ of would-be piracy - the 14-year-old kids hanging out at a park, unable to _easily_ send a movie from one smartphone to another. Not impossible - just hard enough to not bother. You can't absolutely stop 3D printing of dangerous artifacts. But you can lower the appeal by increasing penalties, requiring the party to take more steps to avoid being caught, attaching a strong social…

>>>> But you'll still stop _most instances_ of would-be piracy

Really? Is it how it is working out? Last time I looked all those DRM-ed things were still available easily - together with cracks.

>>> But you can lower the appeal by increasing penalties

Really? Is it how it is working out? I remember we have increased penalties for drug offenses, which completely eradicated drugs from the market. Oh wait, it didn't, it is actually worse than ever and increased penalties mostly hurt innocent people with no criminal intent or criminal past, routing them into the vast prison industry.

>>> but this is one among countless potential potential disasters we almost never see in practice.

As opposed to mass shootings with a 3d-printed plastic guns, which we see in practice every day, right? It is fascinating how common sense can be compartmentalized so neatly - here you can distinguish imaginary threat from real one, and here you completely can't.

>>> It is worth considering why such things happen as rarely as they do.

But it's much more worth considering why some things that never happen is OK but some things that never happen require immediate government action and give exception from all the Constitution.

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#154

Post by hga »

rollo_tommasi wrote: post #152
smsm42 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stupid argument is reiterated again and again and doesn't become less stupid. There are about 100 millions of gun owners in the country. Do you think any government can wage war with 100 million armed citizens, drones or not? Do you read newspapers, do you know how successful the war in any territory where the population is hostile, noncooperative and armed? Do you think US tried to find local allies in Afganist…

Buddy, if it ever comes to pass that fully 1/3 of the population rises up in armed rebellion against the government, equipped with the kind of military-grade weaponry and foreign backing that sustained the Afghan/Iraqi insurgencies, then the USA has become a dystopian warlord state and freedom and democracy are dead letters for the next dozen generations. Get real. These kinds of justifications are just completely ab…

Are you familiar with the concept known as an insurance policy?

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#155

Post by smsm42 »

rollo_tommasi wrote: post #152
smsm42 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stupid argument is reiterated again and again and doesn't become less stupid. There are about 100 millions of gun owners in the country. Do you think any government can wage war with 100 million armed citizens, drones or not? Do you read newspapers, do you know how successful the war in any territory where the population is hostile, noncooperative and armed? Do you think US tried to find local allies in Afganist…

Buddy, if it ever comes to pass that fully 1/3 of the population rises up in armed rebellion against the government, equipped with the kind of military-grade weaponry and foreign backing that sustained the Afghan/Iraqi insurgencies, then the USA has become a dystopian warlord state and freedom and democracy are dead letters for the next dozen generations. Get real. These kinds of justifications are just completely ab…

So you acknowledge that the government can not rule over non-consenting armed population, yet call this idea "absurd".

>>> for people who want to picture themselves as the heroes of another "Red Dawn" remake.

Nobody wants it. But the option is there, and was there from the start. Just as no responsible person wants to kill other people, but if these people break into his house and threaten his life... And yes, this is an unrealistic scenario which never happens to vast majority of people. But if it does, some people want to be prepared. Given how many times defense against completely imaginary scenarios was brought in this topic, as justification for government doing anything, I don't see why this concept is so hard to understand when it's not the government that is doing it.

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#156

Post by [deleted] »

jaibot wrote: post #143
ta25252 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's physically impossible to keep someone from barreing their car at 80mph down the wring side of the highway Not really. Government mandated speed governor in every car, limited to 55 mph.

You're right, of course. s/physically/practically

[deleted]

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#157

Post by ta25252 »

jaibot wrote: post #143
ta25252 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's physically impossible to keep someone from barreing their car at 80mph down the wring side of the highway Not really. Government mandated speed governor in every car, limited to 55 mph.

You're right, of course. s/physically/practically

Did you mean "practically" or "politically"?

Because, while it does not cover the "wrong way down a highway" part of your scenario, such a law would certainly save lives. High speed is a significant contributor to fatal car accidents.

The EU already has such a law for large trucks.

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#158

Post by hga »

ta25252 wrote: post #157
jaibot wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, of course. s/physically/practically

Did you mean "practically" or "politically"? Because, while it does not cover the "wrong way down a highway" part of your scenario, such a law would certainly save lives. High speed is a significant contributor to fatal car accidents. The EU already has such a law for large trucks.

I'm not at all sure about this. Very possibly for cargo carrying trucks, they have different design tradeoffs.

But as I understand it, "high speed" WRT to accidents starts at about 35 mph, which is a speed at which, if you come to an immediate stop, wearing the normal shoulder and waist belts, your head will hit the steering wheel with enough force to cause serious injury, unless an airbag prevents it.

Any reasonable governor is going to be way above that. According to a [citation needed] Wikipedia item (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_(device)#Trucks_.28HGV...), the EU governor speed is 90 or 100 kph, 56 or 62 mph, which sounds plausable. This http://www.usroads.com/journals/aruj/9803/ru980302.htm indicates those speeds are quite lethal.

Keeping people driving for longer periods of time is also going to cost lives....

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#159

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

smsm42 wrote: post #155
rollo_tommasi wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddy, if it ever comes to pass that fully 1/3 of the population rises up in armed rebellion against the government, equipped with the kind of military-grade weaponry and foreign backing that sustained the Afghan/Iraqi insurgencies, then the USA has become a dystopian warlord state and freedom and democracy are dead letters for the next dozen generations. Get real. These kinds of justifications are just completely ab…

So you acknowledge that the government can not rule over non-consenting armed population, yet call this idea "absurd". >>> for people who want to picture themselves as the heroes of another "Red Dawn" remake. Nobody wants it. But the option is there, and was there from the start. Just as no responsible person wants to kill other people, but if these people break into his house and threaten his life... And yes, this i…

> So you acknowledge that the government can not rule over non-consenting armed population

Unarmed non-consenting populations can and have brought down governments. e.g. in Egypt and in the Czech republic. But if the government is determined not to let go at any cost at all, side-arms won't help you against a decent army. Protesters with guns is nothing more than a good excuse to send in the tanks/drone strikes/etc.

So the presence or absence of civilian guns are not the issue that you make them out to be.

Re: US Government Takes Down 3D Printed Gun Plans

#160

Post by ta25252 »

hga wrote: post #158
ta25252 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you mean "practically" or "politically"? Because, while it does not cover the "wrong way down a highway" part of your scenario, such a law would certainly save lives. High speed is a significant contributor to fatal car accidents. The EU already has such a law for large trucks.

I'm not at all sure about this. Very possibly for cargo carrying trucks, they have different design tradeoffs. But as I understand it, "high speed" WRT to accidents starts at about 35 mph, which is a speed at which, if you come to an immediate stop, wearing the normal shoulder and waist belts, your head will hit the steering wheel with enough force to cause serious injury, unless an airbag prevents it. Any reasonable…

Yes, I meant commercial cargo trucks.
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