Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware • Hacker News Board

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#231

Post by dyno12345 » Wed, May 08, 2013, 6:46 PM UTC

rgraham wrote: post #116

k_kelly wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't eat McDonalds and I wear my safety belt. Other people having guns is not something I can control though, hence the justified need to control who can be given them. I don't worry about my freedom to gun people down, it's not a freedom I really want.

Firstly, I don't think anyone is advocating for their freedom to 'gun people down.' More importantly, I don't think your interest in particular freedoms should arbitrate which ones others receive. I can understand that you don't wish to exercise your 2nd amendment rights. No one is force-handing you a gun. Freedoms are about choices for people. "I don't want this freedom, so no one should have it," is misguided. Plen…

I want the freedom to have claymore mines and hand grenades.

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#232

Post by DennisP » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:01 PM UTC

pionar wrote: post #195

rgraham wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The M16 has been semi-auto (single fire and three round bursts) since the Vietnam war with the rare exception of special forces weapons[1]. Fully automatic mainline rifles are inaccurate, wasteful, expensive, and less effective. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#M16A2

Burst fire IS semi-auto, despite the other commenter. Automatic firing means that when you hold down the trigger it continues to fire until either the trigger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted.

The federal government does not consider burst to be semi-auto. Semi-auto rifles are legal for civilians without any special license. Automatic weapons require a Class III license and no civilian can buy one manufactured after 1986. Three-round burst falls into the later category, and any gun store in the U.S. will use the same terminology as the ATF.

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#233

Post by kunai » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:01 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #2

Also ALL violent crime is down 50% since 1993. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0 Fear is a powerful weapon. The media and politicians know this and selectively choose which crime stats to promote. Emotional outrage > rational analysis when it comes to selling pageviews and building political support. That is nothing new. Fortunately the internet is helping to temper that imbalance.

> Emotional outrage > rational analysis

Incredibly true, I'm afraid.

In fact, I'd also add

  advertising > rational analysis
  indoctrination > rational analysis
  political bias > rational analysis
  gratification > rational analysis

These all seem to be qualities we see in the "mass public." Whether it's consumerism, mercurial emotion, or a "save the children" mentality to politics, no one has common sense or the capacity to rationally analyze anything anymore, which is extremely sad.

I'd have to attribute this to the general attitude of ignorance that seems to infect and grow and devastate minds.

When I was in 3rd grade, I asked my teacher why the sun was an inexhaustible resource even when it would eventually collapse and implode, and she said, "Well, it's not going to collapse in our lifetime."

Again, cultivating an attitude of "Just take everything for granted and don't overthink and introspect at all," which, fortunately, I wasn't a victim of. This attitude leads to political ignorance, emotion > reason, consumerism, and also effective advertising.

If it weren't true, The "Learning" Channel, MTV, VH1, Fox News, and MSNBC would not exist today.

But they do.

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#234

Post by lifeisstillgood » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:08 PM UTC

DigitalTurk wrote: post #222

DigitalTurk wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can != will

Wow. Am I get downvoted for pointing out a fallacy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

Dunno about the downvotes but is the best argument we have for reducing suicides, well if we make it more awkward then less folks will top themselves and instead will lead lives of miserable desperation?

We have to be better than harm reduction surely?

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#235

Post by mindcrime » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:20 PM UTC

MrMember wrote: post #227

mindcrime wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't looked up the stats lately, but IIRC, the number of times a legally owned actual assault weapon was used in a crime in the US was something like 3 or 4... ever .

It's hard to find definitive statistics on that. If you go looking around you'll see a few cases that pop up. In the early 2000s a police officer (and member of the SWAT team) used his issued MP5 to murder a few people, and sometime in the 70s a police officer found his wife in bed with another man and killed one (or both? I can't remember) of them. The point is, like you said, it's exceedingly rare.

You're right, the stats on that are somewhat hard to find, or hard to qualify as definitive. I've seen articles that say "NO legally owned fully automatic weapon has ever been used to commit a crime" and I've seen a few articles that say the number is Guncite only comes up with two cases, one of which may one of the same ones you just mentioned:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#236

Post by mindcrime » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:22 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #208

nsmartt wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do keep in mind that the parent was specifically referring to assault weapons, which are presumably much more rare than other firearms, and also very rarely used in crime. I have no statistics, and I have no clue how many baseball bat deaths occur annually. I just thought maybe this would be a useful reminder.

I love trying to find numbers for random claims. This one is a little bit tricky because none of the four numbers are readily available. The closest numbers I can find so far are: Number of murders committed with blunt objects, 2010: 600 [1] Number of murders committed with 'rifles', 2011: 323 [2] Number of 'assault-style' rifles: 3.75 million [3] Number of baseball bats produced per year: > 1.6 million [4] So we don…

If we assume that every blunt object murder is a bat and every rifle murder is an assault rifle, then there are twice as many bat murders as assault rifle murders.

That assumption definitely does not hold for the technical definition of "assault rifle" which includes full-auto capability. Murders committed with fully automatic weapons are very rare, and with legally owned ones, almost completely unheard of.

Now if you use the Brady Campaign definition of "assault weapon" - which basically just translates to "scary looking gun that I don't like" then you may find different numbers.

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#237

Post by corresation » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:24 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #235

MrMember wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to find definitive statistics on that. If you go looking around you'll see a few cases that pop up. In the early 2000s a police officer (and member of the SWAT team) used his issued MP5 to murder a few people, and sometime in the 70s a police officer found his wife in bed with another man and killed one (or both? I can't remember) of them. The point is, like you said, it's exceedingly rare.

You're right, the stats on that are somewhat hard to find, or hard to qualify as definitive. I've seen articles that say "NO legally owned fully automatic weapon has ever been used to commit a crime" and I've seen a few articles that say the number is Guncite only comes up with two cases, one of which may one of the same ones you just mentioned: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html

There is no real definition of what an "assault weapon" is, and few restrict that to only automatic weapon.

I would say that an AR-15 is most certainly an assault weapon. It is a high power weapon (ignore the rather ignorant people who fail to understand the difference between a .22 and a .223) designed and built for military purposes. Being automatic fire or not has remarkable little relevance to its deadliness.

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#238

Post by learc83 » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:31 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #208

nsmartt wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do keep in mind that the parent was specifically referring to assault weapons, which are presumably much more rare than other firearms, and also very rarely used in crime. I have no statistics, and I have no clue how many baseball bat deaths occur annually. I just thought maybe this would be a useful reminder.

I love trying to find numbers for random claims. This one is a little bit tricky because none of the four numbers are readily available. The closest numbers I can find so far are: Number of murders committed with blunt objects, 2010: 600 [1] Number of murders committed with 'rifles', 2011: 323 [2] Number of 'assault-style' rifles: 3.75 million [3] Number of baseball bats produced per year: > 1.6 million [4] So we don…

The number for assault weapons you're using is AR-15 type rifles. That doesn't include AK-47 variants, Ruger Mini-14s, or many others that are considered "assault weapons".

There are estimated to be around 1 million Ruger Mini-14 rifles alone.

Adding all of those rifles to the number and the total number of "assault weapons" and baseball bats are likely to be fairly close--at the very least more than half of your estimate for baseball bats which would put baseball bats ahead.

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#239

Post by edtechdev » Wed, May 08, 2013, 7:34 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #205

edtechdev wrote: post #80

Well back in 1993, almost 49% of households had a gun. Today the number is 32%. That alone is a 35% drop in gun ownership. There are so many other factors that could play a role here. And none of them negate the need for common sense gun regulations and re-funding research on both gun and non-gun violence.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5675330 ; you're talking about the number of households that admit to owning a gun, not the real number. That's somewhere around the middle of the nationwide sweep of shall issue concealed carry regimes, now totalling 42 states and 2/3rds of the population. Such an astounding political development---there were 2-3 states when Florida opened the floodgates in 1987---wouldn't se…

"you're talking about the number of households that admit to owning a gun, not the real number"

Looks like you either didn't read the short sentence I posted, or didn't think about it before responding, because that doesn't say anything against the evidence that there is lower gun ownership today than there was 20 years ago, only that the actual percentage back then AND now is likely higher than surveys suggest, but there is still a strong trend downward in gun ownership.

And for this "so called research", I'm talking about the NIH and CDC research into gun violence that was cut off under pressure by the NRA in 1996: http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2013/02/gun-violence.as...

Research for example that showed that owning a gun increases the likelihood of harm done to or by a family member or acquaintance.

Re: Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

#240

Post by jstalin » Wed, May 08, 2013, 8:01 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #196

balloot wrote: post #14

In a totally and completely unrelated fact, the rate of gun ownership is also down 30% since the 1980's. It's almost as if the two may have a relationship, but that certainly cannot be the case because the NRA has spent a jillion dollars telling me otherwise!

All of those statistics that I've seen, claiming that rates of ownership are down, are based on surveys. What do you think are common reactions from gun owners when a nosy stranger calls them on the phone and asks if they own a gun? Might it have correlations with the Zeitgeist created by the gun grabbers, especially when they dance on the blood of victims like with Newtown? I haven't run the numbers myself, but some…

^ this. No one I know who is a gun owner would say "yes" if called as part of a survey and asked if they own guns.