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Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

nemaload.davidad.org

31–40 of 44 posts

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#31
post #25

While interesting (especially from a funding perspective!), most of these approaches aren't quite as ground-breaking as one might think. Neuroscientists in academia are doing most of these things. For optogenetics, see Deisseroth's work; for in vivo Ca2+ imaging in nematodes, refer to the work of Bargmann as well as the various Witesides collaborations involving microfluidics; pan-neuronal in vivo imaging is currentl…

I think it's fair to say that the hope is to combine the state of the art technology to discover more scientifically than has been before known.

Additionally, this pushes technology. The hope is to push the technology far enough a system such that not only do the components work, but you can build actual useful engineering systems with them.

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#32
post #25

While interesting (especially from a funding perspective!), most of these approaches aren't quite as ground-breaking as one might think. Neuroscientists in academia are doing most of these things. For optogenetics, see Deisseroth's work; for in vivo Ca2+ imaging in nematodes, refer to the work of Bargmann as well as the various Witesides collaborations involving microfluidics; pan-neuronal in vivo imaging is currentl…

David's start is at 14 and not post 20 as most grad students. At minimum, he will end up making something like Mathematica like Wolfram and at max, he will change the world.

The Big and Little Oh of this story are both extreme events.

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#33
post #25

While interesting (especially from a funding perspective!), most of these approaches aren't quite as ground-breaking as one might think. Neuroscientists in academia are doing most of these things. For optogenetics, see Deisseroth's work; for in vivo Ca2+ imaging in nematodes, refer to the work of Bargmann as well as the various Witesides collaborations involving microfluidics; pan-neuronal in vivo imaging is currentl…

I like to describe my techniques as "not novel, just new." I'm absolutely building on the work of many others in academia. I've spent time with Engert at Harvard, Rex Kerr at Janelia, and some of Deisseroth's students, among others (including Boyden, Ramanathan, Manuel Zimmer in Vienna, Aravi Samuel, George Church, and more). I've only briefly met Bargmann and I loved the advice she gave me: "Hmm. That's probably not going to work, but...it's really worth trying."

Unfortunately, most academic scientists are not in a position to risk their careers on such a bold and encompassing proposal. However, I benefit from this in some ways, because academics who are interested in this problem often work on a small piece of it instead of going for the whole thing, and are then incentivized to share that piece with me to integrate with all the other pieces, so they can see their contribution realize its full potential.

I wouldn't underestimate the technical demands of the project - it certainly would have been unthinkable 10 years ago. Sydney Brenner once famously wrote: "Progress in science depends on new techniques, new discoveries, and new ideas, probably in that order." However, you're right to point out that it's really the abstract methodology of delegating experimentation to a machine which truly distinguishes my technical proposal from related work. I have to admit that I haven't worked out in detail what the math will look like, though http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.5708> is a pretty good start. The tricky bit is defining the probability space (that is, the family of models under consideration). As a probability space, it must have a measurable structure. But for efficient and effective inference, it should also have additional structure, like a vector space. Yet any particular choice of vector space representation will trade off dimensionality against non-convexity, so it's desirable to have multiple representations of the same space. I've been taking a "cross that bridge when I come to it" approach, as I'm occasionally reminded by academics that if all I manage to do is collect a bunch of time series data about hundreds of neurons simultaneously, that would still probably be scientifically interesting and novel, even with ordinary, human-driven analyses.

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$ !! > http://nemaload.davidad.org/news

OK, I can't argue with that. https://nemaload.davidad.org/news/2013-developments

Oops, didn't mean to link to the HTTPS-restricted area. " rel="nofollow">http://nemaload.davidad.org/news/2013-developments>, but it's basically just what I wrote above, as suggested (-:

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#35
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's about right. My end product is also a computer simulation, as far as that goes, but I'm taking an obsessively data-driven approach, motivated by the advent of new technologies for single-neuron measurement and perturbation in living, behaving animals. Meanwhile, OpenWorm is taking a bottom-up approach, driven by physics and other first principles. We'll meet in the middle eventually.

yo david, long time no talk.. did you ever get a chance to make use of this data set? ftp://anonymous@ftp.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/pub/tjucikas/wormdatabase/results-12-06-08/Laura%20Grundy It's a few thousand hours of videos of the worms under different stimulation conditions for observing/identifying common behaviors. We miss you in IRC.

The videos and statistics, as well as a description of the setup used for the recordings can be found here:

http://wormbehavior.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#36
post #22

I like the "optional" hands-on challenges he listed for applicants in the jobs page. It may end up filtering out some talented candidates (not wanting to put in this much effort for one application), but it will certainly call out to the tinkerers and hobbyists who would do those tasks for fun anyway.

The challenges are great because it's not just another meaningless programming test. Instead it's "week 1" of the internship, where you learn the background necessary to start work on the project. And even if you don't get the position, all those tasks are useful for a grad student in neuroscience or bioinformatics.

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#37

This isn't directly related, but he enrolled in an MIT graduate program at the age of 14 ? That's incredible. I would love to see how this project progresses. It has fascinating implications for artificial intelligence and singularity.

...and was fired from it.

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#38
So its not just 'simulate', its more like 'virtualise'. They want to examine neurons in a real worm in real time and then model that. You know all those sci-fi books where people upload their minds into software? This worm is going to get there first. Hope they give it somewhere nice to virtually live.

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#39
post #25

While interesting (especially from a funding perspective!), most of these approaches aren't quite as ground-breaking as one might think. Neuroscientists in academia are doing most of these things. For optogenetics, see Deisseroth's work; for in vivo Ca2+ imaging in nematodes, refer to the work of Bargmann as well as the various Witesides collaborations involving microfluidics; pan-neuronal in vivo imaging is currentl…

David's start is at 14 and not post 20 as most grad students. At minimum, he will end up making something like Mathematica like Wolfram and at max, he will change the world. The Big and Little Oh of this story are both extreme events.

That's an awfully high "minimum". I knew several "geniuses" at that age (might even qualify myself, though admittedly I was only three years ahead of par at that age); most of them have gone on to fairly normal (though by no means unsuccessful) careers, and a couple burned out quite spectacularly. I don't think putting that weight of expectation on is helpful.

Re: Show HN: My friend's project to simulate an entire C. Elegans

#40
post #14

The about page [1] is very interesting. "3. Providing a foundation for uploading research .... If it can be done for a worm, the next steps are to attempt a zebrafish, then a fruit fly, then a honeybee, then a mouse, then a dog, then a macaque monkey, then a chimpanzee, and, ultimately, a human. " -- that really fascinate me. Isn't that awesome? But ... "the philosophical assumptions fail, and human immortality throu…

> Isn't that awesome? But ... "the philosophical assumptions fail, and human immortality through uploading is fundamentally impossible".

To boil it down: They assume roughly that simulating the state and functionality of the neurons is sufficient to reproduce consciousness.

If there's something more to consciousness - say for example that consciousness requires the specific organisation of matter of the human brain - then uploading, at least into software, will fail.

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