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Linux is not about choice (2008)

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Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#221

Post by cookiecaper »

kyrias wrote: post #164
pmahoney wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually find PulseAudio vs. JACK incredibly annoying. I like to play around with "professional" audio. I don't consider it professional, but more relevantly I like to play with certain apps that require JACK. It's certainly an RTFM thing, but last time I didn't know how to get PulseAudio to go away. I wrote a shell script to keep killing it in a loop (since it restarts itself) long enough to get JACK to take over.…

> It's certainly an RTFM thing, but last time I didn't know how to get PulseAudio to go away `pulseaudio -k`

PulseAudio instantly respawns from this if you have autospawn set to yes (and most distributions do, and it takes some effort to get it working without that).

Typically when I want a quick-and-dirty "kill PulseAudio for real" solution I move /usr/bin/pulseaudio to /usr/bin/pulse-dead, issue pkill pulseaudio, and proceed until I want PA to come back to life, at which time I mv the binary back.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#222

Post by [deleted] »

EvilLook wrote: post #220
bdunbar wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope you know what Desktop Linux is. Until yesterday, if asked, I would have said 'A linux for end users'. And if asked for an example I would have pointed at my laptops running Slack/Enlightenment and said 'like that'. Maybe it's where I'm at: the only people I know who run Linux are guys who aren't above compiling from source when needed.

Apparently I don't run desktop Linux either because I have no problems editing settings with a text editor, nor do I drool on myself when it comes to reading documentation.

[deleted]

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#223

Post by VLM »

simonh wrote: post #206
VLM wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And look what an epic failure that paradigm has turned into. Much like swiss army knives have ended production of all other tools, etc. No matter how good of a job you do going down the wrong path, fundamentally, you're still going down the wrong path.

I'm, sorry, are you suggesting that integrated GUI environemnts such as MacOSX, Windows (and I'd argue iOS and Android too), are epic failures? In contrast of course to the awesome, eternal empire of success that is the Linux desktop?

The epic fail is in some misguided areas of linux land tying the GUI background image renderer and program launcher to the sound driver such that they (supposedly) cannot be separated in practice although there is no technical reason why they shouldn't be separated. And that's considered anything other than an epic fail.

It would be like demanding if I install grub bootloader, the plain text grub config file may ONLY be edited by vi. Why not nano or emacs? Well we're trying to implement a consistent user experience by limiting user choice and ...

Its a creeping windows "all in one" design model, which is mostly awful. The opposite of the unix "do one thing really well" model.

If android did something that dumb I'd call it out, although I can't think of any example of equal fail level. Imagine if you're only allowed to edit the screen brightness (or autodetect screen brightness), if and only if, you install dogcatcher podcast player, because hey, doggcatcher is awesome, who can disagree with that. And if you remove ConnectBot app then the systemwide GPS/location system completely stops working, because, hey, why not? "I replaced my cell phone battery and that made the volume buttons stop working, because it makes logical sense to bind the two concepts together"

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#224

Post by kondor6c »

marshray wrote: post #153
thwarted wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why it is generally enabled on "server" installations. That being said, the only time I've had a legit use of it was on a media server, running mediatomb, which uses avahi to do SSDP/mDNS/zeroconf/DNS-SD [1], and on the client running VLC (I think the "local network" options interface with avahi itself). Which actually ended up being quite nice. I usually disable it, and try to uninstall it completely, o…

I can't seem to install GVIM on Ubuntu without avahi. I wish I had more choice about it.

try using Gen too the use flags allow for great flexibility and allow smaller packages.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#225

Post by nrivadeneira »

gizzlon wrote: post #176
nrivadeneira wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One other interesting dynamic: sales teams always think it's better to add things than to remove things (after all, you can't sell the things you remove), which I now realize is partially the reason many enterprise software packages feel "bloated" over time." I'm experiencing exactly this. It's like they want to have every feature to be able to whip out for every type of customer. They dread the circumstance where t…

Well, they often work on commission..

True, but in the case of startups with limited dev resources, bloat adds to development and maintenance cost. Poor management of resources like that could mean trouble for a startup.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#226

Post by cookiecaper »

cageface wrote: post #158
coldtea wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really isn't. Unless you have a card without a driver (exceedingly rare, though it's not uncommon to need a recent kernel to use recent hardware) ALSA pretty much Just Works. For complex features like streaming sound over the network you need PulseAudio, which due to its complexity takes more configuration and setup, but that's done out of the box on a fair number of distros. So, in other words, it really is. Al…

The dog's breakfast of audio standards on Linux neatly encapsulates the weaknesses of systems as open and democratic as Linux and illustrates why it thrives on servers where these issues are less pressing and still languishes on the desktop where too much choice is not a virtue. This legacy hampers Android too, which is a joke when it comes to multimedia APIs compared to the oligarchic iOS.

Desktop Linux is just missing a vertical here. The "open and democratic" methods of Linux, also called "free market" or "bazaar", are a fine as a stage of development. This is why distributions exist; they make the choices from the raw technology and bundle it up all neatly. The issue is that the distributions do not have a real attitude of tight integration and strict user-centric organizational imperatives. Ubuntu, Fedora, et al use their platforms as late-stage testbeds instead of standardized, consumer-ready desktop burns with full integration.

In many ways, OS X has shown us the ideal distribution. It's based on open technology and continually adopts new technology as it proves itself, but Apple is not afraid to integrate tightly and replace components with well-engineered, well-tested replacements as necessary (the origination of the divergence between X11 and Quartz), as long as it means a solid, unified, consistent and functional experience for their users.

We need that now. Canonical fancies themselves after that pattern but I don't believe they take the needed organization seriously enough and I don't believe they have the technical expertise necessary to really make the tough calls and implement a technically-sound user-centric system (see: Mir). They need to get some new leadership in there.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#227

Post by gcb0 »

hythloday wrote: post #175
gcb0 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I don't need a fricking web search to know if 3 comes before or after 4. Now, this phone runs android Diabetes, and you want a feature introduced in android Cavity. Should I buy this one? I don't f#&$%#& know!

Both Ubuntu and Android use alphabetically sorted release names that are dense - so it's equally easy to know if Ice Cream Sandwich comes before Jellybean (it's the release before), assuming you're not dyslexic (which I am).

Good point. i never remember the alphabetical order thing on those silly names.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#228

Post by Hello71 »

cookiecaper wrote: post #221
kyrias wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's certainly an RTFM thing, but last time I didn't know how to get PulseAudio to go away `pulseaudio -k`

PulseAudio instantly respawns from this if you have autospawn set to yes (and most distributions do, and it takes some effort to get it working without that). Typically when I want a quick-and-dirty "kill PulseAudio for real" solution I move /usr/bin/pulseaudio to /usr/bin/pulse-dead, issue pkill pulseaudio, and proceed until I want PA to come back to life, at which time I mv the binary back.

  pasuspender

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#229

Post by elmindreda »

ctdonath wrote: post #18
rayiner wrote: post #2

Epic: "But the chain of logic from 'Linux is about choice' to 'ship everything and let the user chose how they want their sound to not work' starts with fallacy and ends with disaster."

Is sound still a problem on Linux? I realize the article is about 5 years old, but Linux has been around for a long time now, and sound is a really basic function I'd expect even obtuse geeks would want to solve. If it is still a problem, seems that's a definitive concise example of why Linux can't win the OS wars: some things must work, even if nobody wants the task of making it work; sometimes the only solution is…

It has worked for me on every system I've ever had, most of which have been laptops. Nowadays, I use Ubuntu, and nearly everything works out of the box on every system I have. Currently, the only issue is the backlight on a very new gaming laptop. I had to download and compile a third-party kernel module for that, which while not a big hassle for me is clearly unacceptable from a usability perspective.

I suggest that some of the problems people are having stem from using distros that either don't care about or have the resources to support desktop use.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#230

Post by marshray »

rammark wrote: post #192
marshray wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't seem to install GVIM on Ubuntu without avahi. I wish I had more choice about it.

Try installing vim-gtk instead of vim-gnome.

IIRC, it would have required me to add the 'universe' repository.
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