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Linux is not about choice (2008)

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Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#191
post #94
post #2

Epic: "But the chain of logic from 'Linux is about choice' to 'ship everything and let the user chose how they want their sound to not work' starts with fallacy and ends with disaster."

well, it's only a problem because sound was never done the linux way. i.e it was never done with choice in mind. so yes, linux is about choice. sound implementations are not. so they give every linux user hell.

Linux is not about choice. Choice just introduces additional complexities, makes it more difficult to test and additional layers is additional bugs.

You seem to suggest that introducing choice would make things less buggy. Care to explain how that would be?

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why it is generally enabled on "server" installations. That being said, the only time I've had a legit use of it was on a media server, running mediatomb, which uses avahi to do SSDP/mDNS/zeroconf/DNS-SD [1], and on the client running VLC (I think the "local network" options interface with avahi itself). Which actually ended up being quite nice. I usually disable it, and try to uninstall it completely, o…

I can't seem to install GVIM on Ubuntu without avahi. I wish I had more choice about it.

Try installing vim-gtk instead of vim-gnome.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#193
post #5

OS: the huge pile of code that you need to get process abstraction, a file system, networking and possibly some human interface stuff up and running. Code best not seen nor heard because that means you're not doing what you should be doing: using applications or writing them. OS software is a commodity, and with portability being Linux' mainstay it can now be found on processors of almost any pedigree. Linux is all a…

It's not the proliferation of choices that's the problem, its that so many of those choices don't work.

If there are multiple options, how would QA ensure that these options aren't buggy? I mean the QA in either something like GNOME, a small project, or a distribution.

Just combine the different amount of sound systems (seems to be popular in these comments). Now combine those different systems with different versions of the kernel and e.g. ALSA. Then sometimes things just don't work because of a combination of the sound system and the bug in the kernel (only exposed in one sound system).

Way easier to just standardize on one. E.g. rely on PulseAudio. Then you can still make a standard to have PulseAudio and JACK work together (something that it seems most people here overlooked), but for your project the QA is easier.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#194
post #140

This was an entertaining talk from CCC in 2011 on desktop Linux. 'datenwolf' was the speaker, and he starts talking about sound in Linux here. [1] He's quickly interrupted by the maintainer of PulseAudio, and this interruption continues throughout the talk. My takeaway was that if there was still this amount of confusion and misunderstanding in the community, my frustrating experiences with sound in desktop Ubuntu wa…

PulseAudio decided - as it does - to turn my headphone volume up to 100% when that video started playing. Gotta love audio on Linux!

Are you sure it is PulseAudio? In case of multiple outputs (headphones, speakers), PulseAudio can change volumes of them based on data from ALSA. Intention is that volume stays the same, except if the data from ALSA is wrong. Even with one output wrong info from ALSA will result in sudden volume changes.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#195
post #20

I don't think Linux is about anything (and that includes intangibles like "choice" or "freedom"). It's an open source kernel that a bunch of people hack on, that's it. The traditional Linux distro model is about choice, but that was from necessity, not design. Android and Ubuntu and others have shown that there's a whole spectrum of OS's with varying degrees of specific design and policy that you can build on top of…

The article is not about the kernel, but about delivering something people can use and expect that it works. So not just a kernel itself. Fairly common to call that Linux, even if technically it is just the kernel (and IMO GNU/Linux is "urgh").

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#196
post #2

Epic: "But the chain of logic from 'Linux is about choice' to 'ship everything and let the user chose how they want their sound to not work' starts with fallacy and ends with disaster."

Is sound still a problem on Linux? I realize the article is about 5 years old, but Linux has been around for a long time now, and sound is a really basic function I'd expect even obtuse geeks would want to solve. If it is still a problem, seems that's a definitive concise example of why Linux can't win the OS wars: some things must work, even if nobody wants the task of making it work; sometimes the only solution is…

I think if sound was working on the Linux server estates of tens of thousands of servers that I have worked on, that would be a problem. I don't really see Linux as a desktop OS, but the attempts at making it one is quite valiant.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#197
post #2

Epic: "But the chain of logic from 'Linux is about choice' to 'ship everything and let the user chose how they want their sound to not work' starts with fallacy and ends with disaster."

Is sound still a problem on Linux? I realize the article is about 5 years old, but Linux has been around for a long time now, and sound is a really basic function I'd expect even obtuse geeks would want to solve. If it is still a problem, seems that's a definitive concise example of why Linux can't win the OS wars: some things must work, even if nobody wants the task of making it work; sometimes the only solution is…

As a Java game engine developer, I can say it's still a problem with Java. Sound mixing will work or not depending on people's installed sound system, sound cards, Linux distro, and a plethora of other factors I don't understand (and apparently no one understands, according to forum searches).

And yes, I know most of you don't like Java, but this is still a problem that doesn't happen in any other OS (OS X is Unix and handles this fine).

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#198
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really isn't. Unless you have a card without a driver (exceedingly rare, though it's not uncommon to need a recent kernel to use recent hardware) ALSA pretty much Just Works. For complex features like streaming sound over the network you need PulseAudio, which due to its complexity takes more configuration and setup, but that's done out of the box on a fair number of distros. I don't know of any major software tha…

Am on debian squeeze, and am not able to find out how to switch between soundcards as the default. Sure I can fire up VLC or Audacity and select within, but the default movie player picks the default sound card and I can't see a way to change it. A minor gripe, probably user error on my part. Also youtube etc use the default soundcard.

I've been fighting with audio on my Debian Squeeze system for a while, but I now think I've finally gotten everything to work. One caveat -- I've yet to try a lot of music listening, so perhaps the addition of the dmix-module does criple the sound a bit -- hard to tell as long as my only other audio source is record player -- if my hi-fi cd player hadn't died a while back an a/b test would've been easier.

Anyway, no pulseaudio, simple usb soundcard/dac based on Burr-Brown from TI[1] - and now (software) mixing of audio works across youtube/html5 audio in iceweasel (21.0~b6-1 from "deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ experimental iceweasel-beta"), vlc and flash audio in chromium[2]. All that was needed in the end, was the following ~/.asoundrc:

    # Aliases for the devices. I don't use the onboard audio - 
    # terribly noisy. The names (after card) come from
    # /proc/asound/cards - see [1]
    pcm.nvidia { type hw; card NVidia; }
    ctl.nvidia { type hw; card NVidia; }
    pcm.usb { type hw; card DAC; }
    ctl.usb { type hw; card DAC; }

    # If all you want is use usb as default,
    # uncomment this, and ignore the rest.
    #pcm.!default pcm.usb
    ctl.!default ctl.usb

    # For software mixing - allowing several programs to play audio
    # at the same time:
    #dmix for software mixing - http://alsa.opensrc.org/Dmix
    pcm.!default {
      type plug
      slave.pcm "dmixer"
    }
    pcm.dmixer {
      type dmix
      ipc_key 1024 # must be unique!
      slave {
        pcm "hw:DAC"
      }
    }
Now, I've also realized that the main reason I started fighting with this, was the delay introduced by pulsaudio, which is only a problem for me in vlc -- and that could've been fixed (probably) by using the tools->Track synchronization menu options. Just in case anyone else has synchronization issues.

I currently don't do any gaming (except for Angband...) -- or other synchronization-sensitive multimedia.

[1] according to /proc/asound/cards: 0 [DAC ]: USB-Audio - USB Audio DAC Burr-Brown from TI USB Audio DAC at usb-0000:00:0b.0-3, full speed

[2] Apparently html5 audio (at least in videostreams) is broken in chromiumr. Flash video (from eg regular non-html5-youtube) works fine for me with this set up. Some more details at: http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=178626

[edit: minor corrections]

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#199
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it conveys relevant information. If you were on version 7 and the new version is version 13, a message is conveyed that there have been several major iterations since your last upgrade. Numerical versioning schemes (in general) make it simple to know if you're on a current version, and if not, how far off you are. Now consider trying to make similar determinations if you know you're running "Gingerbread" but…

For what it's worth, Ubuntu versions are always Adjectivated Animals (with the adjective and the animal name always starting with the same letter), and ever since 6.06 LTS (Dapper Drake), they've been sorted alphabetically, incrementing the first letter with every release. So even without any further information, you can easily work out that Raring Ringtail is 9 releases ahead of Intrepid Ibex.

A not very well publicised guideline is that the codenames are only supposed to be used before release, and the version number after release. If you go to ubuntu.com they consistently use the version number, not the codename.

Re: Linux is not about choice (2008)

#200
post #181
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that many choices are not documented in an accessible way. Even default choices. People complaining that desktop Linux is full of bugs and does not work. I think it works pretty well now, but the lack of man pages for anything desktop related is just sad. I'd like to understand how this works so that I'm able to fix it. But I can't easily I have to resort to wild googling, joining others in forums trying to decip…

ConsoleKit at least is deprecated. For the others, not sure if why you'd expect man files for them. They're just services, not something you'd run manually. If you make your intent clear, file a bug on it.

Because man provides access to the Unix manual? It's a commentary indeed when the man pages on a Macintosh are better.
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