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Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

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Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#11

Post by obviouslygreen »

GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

Given all the anecdotes around here offering the same experience, I'm interested in this too. If it is a cultural thing, I'd say two things:

1. It makes sense. A lot of sense. In the real world, it's far more useful to be able to collaborate effectively than to always adopt an adversarial or competitive attitude.

2. It should be addressed openly. Personally, I think a more collaborative environment would help a lot of us in a lot of ways, but sometimes that's just not how things are supposed to be done (e.g. assignments and tests in most US schools); in that case, everyone might be a little more aware and happy if it were clear up front -- in very multi-cultural situations -- what the expectations are regarding individual work.

Of course, that won't stop everyone, and it doesn't address every problem, but making everyone aware of the differences could stop a lot of misunderstanding and, potentially, what's technically cheating even though that may not be the intent.

[edit: Of course, some people do just plain cheat, knowingly and willfully; this is not intended to excuse that behavior, which is crap and should be punished.]

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#12

Post by rrrazdan »

GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

From my own experience as an Indian student. We colluded a lot. In assignments and even in examinations. I went to a pretty elite Indian institution( hint: Its near the banks of a very holy river.) I think that many Indians try to take advantage of the 'system' wherever they can and do not see it as wrong. I see it as wrong now in hindsight, but back then it seemed like a mildly wrong thing to do.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#13

Post by kranner »

GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

Yes, in my experience as a born and raised Indian: collusion, and grovelling for 'help' amounting to spoon-feeding is all fair game.

For shame, fellow countrymen.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#14

Post by _ysng »

fmax30 wrote: post #6
testbro wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This behaviour was common in the last Facebook Hacker Cup too. Most of the announcements of rounds starting included discussion of (and in some cases links to) solutions. I guess it's part and parcel - I think Facebook did take action against obvious plagiarisers. If not, the later rounds will weed out the cheaters in any case.

I think you are missing the point here , instead of 3 cheaters three honest coders could have qualified to the next round , which would in turn give them the chance for competing in round 2 and round 3.

If someone barely missed passing through 1st round, chance for him to make it through any of the following rounds is practically non-existant. Exception being if he's experienced competitor who fell short for some reason.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#15

Post by [deleted] »

deletes wrote: post #8
jgunsch wrote: post #4

Aside: Why "Indian coders" and not just "Three coders"? Would this have ever been titled "white coders found cheating"? I know this isn't the point of the article, but I wonder if, on HN, we should consider clipping "gratuitous adjectives" in titles that contribute to perpetuating dominant systems.

They are from the country named India. Thus Indian coders. Color has nothing to do with it. If they were from America the title would not have been white coders but American coders.

[deleted]

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#16

Post by fromdoon »

rrrazdan wrote: post #12
GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

From my own experience as an Indian student. We colluded a lot. In assignments and even in examinations. I went to a pretty elite Indian institution( hint: Its near the banks of a very holy river.) I think that many Indians try to take advantage of the 'system' wherever they can and do not see it as wrong. I see it as wrong now in hindsight, but back then it seemed like a mildly wrong thing to do.

Are you from IT-BHU?

I went there as well. Class of 2008. I can understand what you're saying man. No wonder!!

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#17

Post by SteveGerencser »

_ysng wrote: post #14
fmax30 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing the point here , instead of 3 cheaters three honest coders could have qualified to the next round , which would in turn give them the chance for competing in round 2 and round 3.

If someone barely missed passing through 1st round, chance for him to make it through any of the following rounds is practically non-existant. Exception being if he's experienced competitor who fell short for some reason.

So what you are saying is that since they may not have had a chance to win it's okay that someone cheating got ahead of them?

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#18

Post by alok-g »

The quality of higher education in India is just bad (I am originally from India) making it more about the degree* than about education itself. Given this, copying assignments is rampant as it is an economically sensible step to getting the degree (without having to also getting the education). A part of the problem is also that the professors themselves are barely good (as such I come from a very reputed engineering college) to provide quality education for those who actually care about it. Students had no trust on the course syllabus itself. So they would copy the assignments for the degree, and if interested, would pursue self-study for the education.

A student in my session once remarked that these colleges are still very reputed because ultimately the students coming out of the colleges are still very good. This is not because of the college though -- The students going "in" have to be extremely good in the entrance exams to get into the college* .

Based on the advice a relative gave me, I balanced my efforts between the degree and education (given the two do not overlap as much) to maintain just average grades in college purposefully. If my grades in the last semester were better than the average, I would reduce my degree/assignments effort while increasing my education efforts studying in the college library.

I do not think this is limited to India though. I was teaching assistant for a course at a reputed US university, and found a programming assignment for a group of 17 oriental students to be exactly the same. So it was clear that only one of them had actually done it. Until I found that one of the students did not even remove the original author's name from the assignment (!) and this name was none of the 17!

Another incidence I recall from the same US university is when some 38 out of 40 students were proven to have copied the assignments. The explanation the teaching assistant gave to the professor was that it was not a good idea to have an assignment due just two days before the final exams.

PS: I am not suggesting of course that cheating in the Code Jam is justified by any means. Just trying to explain where the cheating culture is coming from.

* Keep in mind the significantly higher population as well as population density in India as compared to say the US, which amongst other things makes the market very competitive.

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#19

Post by djKianoosh »

GuiA wrote: post #5

Is collusion more commonly accepted in some Asian cultures? I distinctly remember my grad school classes, where even by getting 95% I'd be dead last in the class rankings because all the Chinese/Indian students would get 98/99/100% on their assignments. I didn't really care about it, figuring that their studying habits were much more diligent than mine, until one time I arrived in the classroom 45 minutes early and f…

this manifests itself in the job market as well, as people from the same culture/background "help" each other get positions/contracts. then again, isn't this what humans have always done, tend to their own? I mean, if you identify with a group, you naturally show some loyalty to that group.

Because I've lived in several countries and somewhat assimilated different cultures as my own, I personally don't identify with any one group enough to do this. So among cross-cultural people I can say they/we tend to the opposite. Just from personal experience that is...

Re: Indian Coders Found Cheating in Google Code Jam?

#20

Post by plinkplonk »

Original Source:http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/1dpxc0/3_indian_coder...

The submission's url just has some editorial fluff that doesn't say anything useful and has no extra information. Would be a shame to give them the traffic for essentially cut paste + crappy commentary.

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