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The cost of hand-to-mouth living

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Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#21

Post by scarmig »

alxp wrote: post #5
ck2 wrote: post #3

My personal saying is "It's very expensive to be poor".

Obligatory Vimes quote: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Thos…

Health insurance is a similar situation.

Once you've saved up a decent amount, it makes much more sense to go with a very high deductible plan. Sure, you might lose 10k in one year through some disaster, but on average you'll pay much less than that, such that it's cheaper to forgo insurance for everyday health expenses.

If you're poor, though, having to spend 10k out of pocket will throw you into a spiral of debt, bankruptcy, and poverty, on top of the associated health problems. Even 1k out of pocket can ruin you.

Over decades, you can reasonably expect to save tens of thousands of dollars on health insurance with a high deductible instead of a "comprehensive" plan.

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#23

Post by gnok »

daeken wrote: post #10
alxp wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obligatory Vimes quote: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Thos…

That's a great quote, but this all really just boils down to short- versus long-term thinking. When you're poor, your long-term thinking goes out the window in exchange for making it to next week. Getting out of that is hard -- harder than you can imagine until you're in it -- because it's like your long-term thought center just atrophies in survival mode.

I beg to differ. For a lot of people, it isn't about the "thinking". Its the reality of their wallets.

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#24

Post by daeken »

gnok wrote: post #23
daeken wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great quote, but this all really just boils down to short- versus long-term thinking. When you're poor, your long-term thinking goes out the window in exchange for making it to next week. Getting out of that is hard -- harder than you can imagine until you're in it -- because it's like your long-term thought center just atrophies in survival mode.

I beg to differ. For a lot of people, it isn't about the "thinking". Its the reality of their wallets.

Perhaps "planning" is a term closer to what I'm attempting to convey. The reality is that even if you think long-term, it requires money to execute those plans.

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#25

Post by stdbrouw »

daeken wrote: post #10
alxp wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obligatory Vimes quote: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Thos…

That's a great quote, but this all really just boils down to short- versus long-term thinking. When you're poor, your long-term thinking goes out the window in exchange for making it to next week. Getting out of that is hard -- harder than you can imagine until you're in it -- because it's like your long-term thought center just atrophies in survival mode.

But how much long-term thinking can you really do when you have no money?

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#26

Post by stdbrouw »

noonespecial wrote: post #14
ck2 wrote: post #3

My personal saying is "It's very expensive to be poor".

"The poor are poor because all of their choices in life suck." There are about 3 ways to interpret that statement. How people interpret it at first reading basically describes their political philosophies.

The choices you're given, the choices you've taken... but what's #3?

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#27

Post by daeken »

stdbrouw wrote: post #25
daeken wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great quote, but this all really just boils down to short- versus long-term thinking. When you're poor, your long-term thinking goes out the window in exchange for making it to next week. Getting out of that is hard -- harder than you can imagine until you're in it -- because it's like your long-term thought center just atrophies in survival mode.

But how much long-term thinking can you really do when you have no money?

Very little -- that's the point. When you're in a position like this, you're not thinking long-term because 1) the short-term requires your immediate attention, and 2) even if you come up with long-term plans, it's going to be very difficult to execute them without money.

This is by no means a value judgement -- been there, done that -- and more just a reality of the situation.

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#28

Post by protomyth »

You'll also find the cops setting up "safety checkpoints" on the day welfare payments go out / checks clear. It happened a lot on the road from the reservation to town. Its not like its easy to keep a car running and maintained in a place where it gets above 90F in the summer and -40F in the winter[1].

1) there is no bus or other public transportation

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#29

Post by noonespecial »

stdbrouw wrote: post #26
noonespecial wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The poor are poor because all of their choices in life suck." There are about 3 ways to interpret that statement. How people interpret it at first reading basically describes their political philosophies.

The choices you're given, the choices you've taken... but what's #3?

I used to think there were only two as well but a third kept popping up. It might not be a strict interpretation per se, but it deserves its own category.

It goes something like "You shouldn't say stuff like that, its prejudice against the poor, don't be so arrogant, hateful, etc." The quote is a call to action: We should help the poor make better choices; we should help the poor have better choices; and the third "we should make it so people don't talk like this". I find the last one the most troubling.

Personally I think both sides should soften their approaches and try to meet in the middle of #1 and #2 for surely its a continuum stretching between the two. The third reaction baffles me.

Re: The cost of hand-to-mouth living

#30

Post by HCIdivision17 »

daeken wrote: post #10
alxp wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obligatory Vimes quote: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Thos…

That's a great quote, but this all really just boils down to short- versus long-term thinking. When you're poor, your long-term thinking goes out the window in exchange for making it to next week. Getting out of that is hard -- harder than you can imagine until you're in it -- because it's like your long-term thought center just atrophies in survival mode.

Poor people aren't ignorant of the long-term. Note that Vimes himself is poor (he never really becomes a noble, at least); his point is you need boots now, and can't wait a year to save up for a good pair - the boots you get today leave you without enough to ever buy nice boots. Most depressingly, many don't see how they can save at all, making just slightly less than what's needed to make it to next week.

I suppose part of the trick is to realize you're living less than a zero sum life, and then grinding even worse off for a long while to save enough up for a pair of boots that will then save you enough to lift your life up by the bootstraps.

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