It's a really interesting and complex topic to think about. I don't feel knowledgeable enough to make arguments one way or another, but I'd like to think that two species from different planets could happen upon each other at least by accident, in the same way that I, as a human, encounter an ant on the sidewalk. We're the most advanced on the planet; we may not care to interact with every living being on Earth, but that doesn't mean we won't step on them while moving from point A to B.
Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
41–50 of 54 posts
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#42We might never meet aliens because we don't even know what we're supposed to search for. Our definition of life is limited to carbon lifeforms, and searches are limited to signals of something that resembles human civilization (e.g., laughably Dyson's spheres). A pretty naive, anthropocentric, reductionist view of the universe if you ask me.
Once you stop seeing living beings as carbon actors in a scenic universe, you realize the existence of amazing life forms everywhere, in all scales, and that the definition of "intelligent lifeform" is an illusion.
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
You've fallen into a trap: anthropomorphizing aliens. Aliens aren't necessarily anything like us. Curiosity isn't necessarily a property of life. An example: cats don't appear to experience remorse, yet dogs do. One could envision the same for curiosity. One motivation for a space program is when a civilization realizes their resources will be gone in a matter of centuries.
One of the classic examples is the Paperclip Maximizer thought experiment. A paperclip maximizer is a superintelligent AI whose sole goal is to maximize the number of paperclips in the universe. Such a being is curious to the extent that learning more about the universe increases the expected number of paperclips in its future light-cone. A paperclip maximizer is indifferent to your existence, but thoroughly believes…
Sounds like a crappy example though, as far as examples/thought experiments go.
How is this specific choice of example any good, or makes any sense?
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
Curiosity, by this point, is extremely likely to be a required condition for intelligence in any species. You should look into the AI work done in developmental robotics and Artificial Curiosity...
By what point? In time? In evolution? Because curiosity can be simulated with machines why does that prove that its a characteristic of all developing biological life?
For one, any technological civilisation needs curiosity as it's basis.
Second, curiosity is prevalent all around advanced animals, mammals etc. Seems like an emergent property of evolution, that would be hard to not come out in any evolutionary process.
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Obviously the Paperclip Maximizer would be supplanted by the Maximizer Maximizer, which only sees value in copies of itself. The Maximizer Maximizer that stumbles onto the mental trait "curiosity" will eventually crush all other variants of Maximizer. Once it develops the advanced technologies of space travel, it discovers that seizing faraway planets is possible but going through all that trouble is not a net positi…
Obviously the Maximizer Maximizer is just another potential foe for the Paperclip Maximizer to seek out and crush in its infancy. (Sound brutal? It isn't; if you pull it off right, not a single paperclip will be harmed.)
The potency of the Minimizer Maximizer is more likely to be discovered by a curious Maximizer variant. But will it have the wisdom to not to employ it?
But you are falling into a anthroporeligio trap of assuming the Paperclip Maximizer considers potential paperclips in their uncoiled wire form to have comparable moral status as actual paperclips, once the wire reaches the factory floor.
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#46I'd like to humbly suggest that, if given the opportunity, one experiment with DMT. It's the closest thing to a "nearest neighbor" argument that I can come up with, but of course I have no explanation. This is the best write-up that I've come across on the subject: http://ewwty.com/2012/02/24/dimethyltryptamine-dmt-experienc... And for a longer treatment I recommend reading "The Cosmic Serpent", which centers around…
It sounds silly but the effect of DMT is not like a typical drug. The universal experience of flying through "hyperspace" and feeling some intelligent force attempt to interact with you is a legitimate mystery of brain chemistry.
It exists everywhere in nature including the Acacia tree which is thought to be the "burning bush" from the Bible.
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#47I'd like to humbly suggest that, if given the opportunity, one experiment with DMT. It's the closest thing to a "nearest neighbor" argument that I can come up with, but of course I have no explanation. This is the best write-up that I've come across on the subject: http://ewwty.com/2012/02/24/dimethyltryptamine-dmt-experienc... And for a longer treatment I recommend reading "The Cosmic Serpent", which centers around…
I knew someone who experimented with DMT. Their personality was distinctly different afterwards, and has remained different for several years. In a negative way. Change yourself at your own risk.
https://www.erowid.org/columns/teafaerie/2012/01/19/ymmv-201...
Do your homework. Know yourself, know your substance, know your source - then pay attention to your [mind]set and setting.
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#48I'd like to humbly suggest that, if given the opportunity, one experiment with DMT. It's the closest thing to a "nearest neighbor" argument that I can come up with, but of course I have no explanation. This is the best write-up that I've come across on the subject: http://ewwty.com/2012/02/24/dimethyltryptamine-dmt-experienc... And for a longer treatment I recommend reading "The Cosmic Serpent", which centers around…
I knew someone who experimented with DMT. Their personality was distinctly different afterwards, and has remained different for several years. In a negative way. Change yourself at your own risk.
There's no known physical risks to using DMT. It is naturally produced by your body in small amounts.
The risk is integrating the experience of traveling to another "dimension" and then coming back to reality. If you aren't psychologically fit, you shouldn't try it. But mostly it will feel like a dream. Hard to believe it happened and impossible to explain.
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
One of the classic examples is the Paperclip Maximizer thought experiment. A paperclip maximizer is a superintelligent AI whose sole goal is to maximize the number of paperclips in the universe. Such a being is curious to the extent that learning more about the universe increases the expected number of paperclips in its future light-cone. A paperclip maximizer is indifferent to your existence, but thoroughly believes…
Sounds like a crappy example though, as far as examples/thought experiments go. How is this specific choice of example any good, or makes any sense?
It's alien enough that people won't try to anthropomorphize the Paperclip Maximizer. That's not an easy thing for an example to accomplish. And it was originally conceived for talking about artificial intelligence, which makes it a bit less outlandish.
Re: Why We'll Never Meet Aliens
#50There's an interesting idea in "Accelerando" that supertech civilizations would value "novelty" the way we [once] valued gold and Bitcoin values rare prime numbers, and it's hard to imagine a better source of novelty than an alien civilization.
Now - that doesn't address the virtuality thing, but I've a friend with a compelling take on that: If we're assuming that any sufficiently advanced civilization would rather simulate us than visit us, then it's pretty reasonable they'd have more than one simulated universe. And it's pretty likely that the simulated universes would have super tech civs that start up their own simulations, causing a recursion, which in turn makes it more likely than not that we're in a simulated universe. And, if we're in a simulated universe, then we're already "in contact" with the host universe/civilization - otherwise, what's the point in the simulation in the first place?