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Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

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Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#51

Post by Someone »

niels_olson wrote: post #39
puivert wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's better than landfill without methane recovery, greenhouse gas wise.

Source? Mole for mole, I'm sure methane is worse than CO2, but how much of the carbon mass in a landfill goes to methane?

I think (but don't have proof) that it still is better if none of it escapes as methane.

If you don't turn your waste into heat, presumably, you would dig up oil, refine it, transport it to where you need it and burn that oil. Chances are that produces more CO2 than the collection and burning of waste fairly close to where it is produced (transporting waste from Italy to Norway would probably be a different matter)

Also, the controlled burning of waste (typically at high temperatures) can break down molecules that, if dropped in a landfill, may make it into the atmosphere or ground water.

More arguments fore/against at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incineration#Debate. I find it telling that quite a few of the 'against' arguments compare incineration not with landfills, but with other technologies/solutions.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#52

Post by lobster_johnson »

mathiasben wrote: post #18

Could existing landfills be mined to supply this need?

There was a recent episode of Bang Goes the Theory [1] about how the UK has started to turn landfills into "bioreactors" [2], by covering them with earth (essentially turning them into parks). Underneath the top-soil layer, the landfill is covered with a layer that traps the methane and sends it into a methane-capturing system.

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s1mzl

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#53

Post by martythemaniak »

jere wrote: post #27

This scenario plays out in the board game "Power Grid." It's a game about running power plants and one of the 4 resources is garbage. It's a great late game fuel, but it can get scarce. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2651/power-grid

Very good game if you like Catan-style games.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#55

Post by 13b9f227ecf0 »

johansch wrote: post #54

History-less american barbarians! :) Sweden started this craze: actually Norway exported their garbage there: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/10/28/163823839/swe... Or see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4702319

The word you're looking for is ahistorical.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#56

Post by jere »

martythemaniak wrote: post #53
jere wrote: post #27

This scenario plays out in the board game "Power Grid." It's a game about running power plants and one of the 4 resources is garbage. It's a great late game fuel, but it can get scarce. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2651/power-grid

Very good game if you like Catan-style games.

Agreed. I've heard good things for a while, but I was very impressed when I played it last week for the first time.

Also (this is why I was tempted to post about it on HN), it's very heavy on number crunching and has a nice CS feel to it. Placing your cities is, I think, an instance of minimum spanning trees. Thought MST has a lot of applications, interestingly the first algorithm for finding them was invented in 1926 for "efficient electrical coverage of Moravia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bor%C5%AFvka%27s_algorithm

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#57

Post by jgj »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #25
jgj wrote: post #21

> Yet though Oslo considered the Italian garbage, it preferred to stick with what it said was the cleaner and safer English waste. “It’s a sensitive question,” Mr. Mikkelsen said. This is literally the most intriguing thing in my life right now. What a tease. Does anyone have insight into why Italian garbage is less safe?

Oh, you haven’t seen Gomorrah? You’re in for a treat! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929425/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomorrah_(film)

Will. Do. Grazie.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#58

Post by ericd »

niels_olson wrote: post #50
ericd wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which would largely turn back into CO2 once the bacteria do their thing.

Erm, I believe it would turn back into oil and coal, etc.

We're not entirely clear on how that works, and our best estimates are that it takes on the order of hundreds of thousands of years and requires quite a bit of pressure. The proposal above would basically be a deep landfill, and generally what will come from landfills in our lifetime is methane, CO2, dirty water, and a lot of garbage sitting around.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#59

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #5
jtchang wrote: post #3

I always thought burning garbage is really bad for the environment. Aren't there dangerous chemicals that are released if the garbage is not incinerated?

At least in the US, a modern incinerator produces cleaner exhaust gases than a power plant does. This is because the air quality restrictions are quite tight, and building an incinerator from the ground up with those restrictions in mind results in exhaust flues with filters to catalyze by products into non-aerosols. That said, providing heat is the best use for this since even low grade heat (100 - 150 degrees C) is…

This would work very well for the central heating systems (mostly coal or gas based) of northern China. We also have plenty of garbage to burn. But I wouldn't trust the government to implement it with the correct environmental safeguards.

Re: Oslo is turning garbage into energy and is running out of garbage

#60

Post by seanmcdirmid »

niels_olson wrote: post #36
rexreed wrote: post #11

I suggest expansion into Mumbai... plagued by trash, lacking reliable energy.

Unlike a developed country like Norway, doing this in Mumbai almost makes sense. Get them quickly up to a level where they can hop over a bunch of our generational mistakes and go straight to solar. But in a developed country with abundant hydroelectric resources, this is shameful. Unless they recover all the waste products, including all the gases and ash, and bury them in old mines.

The heat is not useful for generating electricity, it could be used to heat buildings, but I bet that is hardly a concern in Mumbai.
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