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“Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

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Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#71

Post by sokoloff »

grappler wrote: post #60
eykanal wrote: post #3

What a perfect example of the benefits of open communication. Sarah was a skilled enough boss to make Zach feel comfortable challenging her. Zach was an engaged enough employee to actually discuss something that was bothering him. There are so many ways that this could not have happened. This makes me really want to work with that team.

That reminds me of a stupid thing I said once. At a sprint retrospective, I said something to the effect of “I realize that I could stand to get faster at coding and using the editor shortcuts”. I was fired the next day. Reason given: coding skill.

I doubt that there was a strict causal link between your statement and your termination. (That no one was considering it, then you made that statement, then suddenly you're let go the next day.) If there was, and you're the type to read HN, you are better off anyway, even if it felt otherwise at the time.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#72

Post by rubinelli »

tlogan wrote: post #69
eykanal wrote: post #3

What a perfect example of the benefits of open communication. Sarah was a skilled enough boss to make Zach feel comfortable challenging her. Zach was an engaged enough employee to actually discuss something that was bothering him. There are so many ways that this could not have happened. This makes me really want to work with that team.

The open communication does last long (: The problem is the following: the existing managers will move on, the new manager will come, the new employee will come in, ... So... you eventually end up in the same place as in any other company.

The trick is not hiring too fast. If you bring employees in one at a time and wait for them to acclimate, you won't have a culture shift. Most companies go downhill when they try to grow too big, too fast.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#73

Post by skrebbel »

VLM wrote: post #10
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're working for a new company, this might be true. However, many established companies (like the one I work for now) have fewer benefits for hourly employees, not to mention the pay ceilings are much lower than salary. Paying hourly also has a lot of annoying caveats to it. Should I be clocked in for work-related functions? What about ones where I'm expected to be there but it's from 6pm-8pm at a restaurant (an…

Being treated with respect as a human being is a strange way to describe being treated as a second class citizen (Been there done that, on both sides of the argument BTW, and hourly was much more professional, much more humane) The answer to your questions BTW are yes, yes, yes if optional no if not, and depends solely on how paranoid the boss is and has nothing whatsoever to do with how finance pays you. The first t…

> The answer to your questions BTW are yes, yes, yes if optional no if not

Oh come on. Did you write that comment with the intent of it being read?

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#74

Post by Joeri »

31reasons wrote: post #63
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #4

How many companies that tout flexible work schedules actually allow them? In my mind, a flexible work schedule should mean somewhere in the realm of 35-40 hours a week, with those expected occasional 41-60 hr spikes before a deadline. When I talked to a recruiter recently, though, I asked them about their flexible work schedule. What they said was kind of horrifying: "Oh yeah, we're TOTALLY flexible! When there's a d…

I truly believe Programmers should never get a "job". If you are not skilled at all they are really overpaying you and if you have any skill at all, they are really underpaying you. I wish a day when all programmers just work as consultants and paid of every hour they work. Programmers should be treated more like artists or actors.

There is more value to programming than what it puts in your bank account though. If you wish to build and be part of a truly engaging product, you have to engage for the long haul with a codebase, on the order of years. That means either (A) you make your own product (and are responsible for your own business strategy, accounting and sales), or (B) you get into a fixed contract with some employer (where due to the long term relationship they will be careful to restrict what they pay).

In scenario (A) you will not spend all your day programming. You will have to care about the business parts. If you're not cut out for those parts, even if you end up making lots of money, you will probably not be happy.

In scenario (B) you are more likely to be able to spend more time programming, with less overhead to worry about, but this depends heavily on the employer, so you may end up performing several false starts or walking away from an employer/employee relationship. If an employer accepts you, you will most likely not be paid what your time is worth, but this is a willing exchange for not having to care about the non-technical parts of the story.

Is there a scenario C? If there is I've not yet discovered it.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#75

Post by mcherm »

grappler wrote: post #60
eykanal wrote: post #3

What a perfect example of the benefits of open communication. Sarah was a skilled enough boss to make Zach feel comfortable challenging her. Zach was an engaged enough employee to actually discuss something that was bothering him. There are so many ways that this could not have happened. This makes me really want to work with that team.

That reminds me of a stupid thing I said once. At a sprint retrospective, I said something to the effect of “I realize that I could stand to get faster at coding and using the editor shortcuts”. I was fired the next day. Reason given: coding skill.

How was your next job? Better? Worse?

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#76

Post by hispanic »

Joeri wrote: post #74
31reasons wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly believe Programmers should never get a "job". If you are not skilled at all they are really overpaying you and if you have any skill at all, they are really underpaying you. I wish a day when all programmers just work as consultants and paid of every hour they work. Programmers should be treated more like artists or actors.

There is more value to programming than what it puts in your bank account though. If you wish to build and be part of a truly engaging product, you have to engage for the long haul with a codebase, on the order of years. That means either (A) you make your own product (and are responsible for your own business strategy, accounting and sales), or (B) you get into a fixed contract with some employer (where due to the l…

Yes, there is. I've worked as a paid-by-the-hour contractor for a single client for years at a time. I've done this for three different clients - for 4 years, 2 and 1/2 years, and (my current client) 3 and 1/2 years. In my current role, I serve as dev lead and have significant input with regard to strategic direction of the project. I might be an outlier and my experience may not be shared by many, but I'm evidence that scenario C exists.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#77

Post by tensor »

rkroondotnet wrote: post #68
bcoates wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be reading a little much into the slide. I think it's obvious that the point is you get no credit for effort expended: you either deliver what is expected of you or you don't. Also, I'm not sure what hellish grading system you're used to where "A" means "1% elite". In most contexts, it means "competent": A student at most educational institutions in the US can expect an A if they grasped the class m…

It's interesting to hear that "A" means "competent" in the USA. I'm assuming that you aren't just making an off the cuff statement of course, and if you aren't I'd like to share some Australian context. Most people get a "C" or passing grade only in Secondary and Tertiary education. As an Aussie trying to impress American employers (in the past) with my credentials, this goes some way to explaining why they list "GPA…

A does not mean "competent" in the US. Grades are curved so that only a few students get A's. It has nothing at all to do with what the student knows either. Hell, I remember some university classes explicitly assigning grades this way: a a measure of you relative to your peers. People generally don't get 4.0's either.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#78

Post by lacksconfidence »

tensor wrote: post #77
rkroondotnet wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to hear that "A" means "competent" in the USA. I'm assuming that you aren't just making an off the cuff statement of course, and if you aren't I'd like to share some Australian context. Most people get a "C" or passing grade only in Secondary and Tertiary education. As an Aussie trying to impress American employers (in the past) with my credentials, this goes some way to explaining why they list "GPA…

A does not mean "competent" in the US. Grades are curved so that only a few students get A's. It has nothing at all to do with what the student knows either. Hell, I remember some university classes explicitly assigning grades this way: a a measure of you relative to your peers. People generally don't get 4.0's either.

depends on the university. Many universitys do not use a curve for grading. Almost every class i went to on the very first day you get a syllabus that states the total number of available 'points' that you can get for the various parts of the class, and then states how many points you need to acquire the various grades of A B or C.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#79

Post by grappler »

sokoloff wrote: post #71
grappler wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me of a stupid thing I said once. At a sprint retrospective, I said something to the effect of “I realize that I could stand to get faster at coding and using the editor shortcuts”. I was fired the next day. Reason given: coding skill.

I doubt that there was a strict causal link between your statement and your termination. (That no one was considering it, then you made that statement, then suddenly you're let go the next day.) If there was, and you're the type to read HN, you are better off anyway, even if it felt otherwise at the time.

No, I don't mean to imply that it was as simple as that.

This was a place where programmers pair all the time. If you're working by yourself, and you don't have things like quick editor navigation down, nobody cares. If you're pairing with someone who does, and they sigh and roll their eyes at the few seconds it takes you to do some basic tasks, it sucks. I could see and feel them gradually losing respect for me. In technical conversations, my opinion ceased to feel welcome.

Honestly, I probably would have been let go anyway. They were probably having conversations to this effect among themselves. It's pretty crappy to feel you're persona non grata without it being explicitly spelled out for you (yet). And I really was working on studying up and building these skills.

Bringing this up at a retrospective was saying, in effect, “I know this is an issue, I am working on it, and if you have any constructive feedback I welcome it”.

What I should have been doing, looking back on it, was actively looking for my next job. Saying this publicly to the team gave me less time to do that.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#80

Post by grappler »

mcherm wrote: post #75
grappler wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me of a stupid thing I said once. At a sprint retrospective, I said something to the effect of “I realize that I could stand to get faster at coding and using the editor shortcuts”. I was fired the next day. Reason given: coding skill.

How was your next job? Better? Worse?

Better, but only slightly. At the extreme other end from pairing, I worked very independently. I had a nice system worked out for how I like to organize repositories, data, logs, installations etc. That takes some setup work but it pays off for me if I'm able to organize things this way up front.

I was thrilled at the hands off treatment I was getting, as I read documentation and integrated each new piece of the system into my development environment. I would have occasional questions when I ran into something that seemed off, like incorrect documentation or a broken script. I methodically fixed these things as I went, and soon had an automated build that could set up all the pieces on a fresh computer.

Then I hit a snag. I had trouble running the tests. I had little experience with the tool in question and, as has been my habit, took that as an opportunity to dive in and learn the tool. The manager saw this and was not happy. “Just make it work”, he said. “That's not a tool to learn, it's one to get working and then forget about”. I wasn't sure how to act on this. I've fought with code before, randomly trying things until something improves and I find it stressful and unrewarding. I tried to skim more and try things quickly but I still ended up with a lot of documentation tabs open and a lot of material to read and absorb.

The manager became more involved. He found a sample project online where somebody got this combination of tools working together, and sent it to me as I was driving home. He also suggested the probable heart of the matter. I tried it as soon as I got home, and his suggestion was indeed the right one.

I had flailed for a couple days on this, even considering switching to a different tool (an idea first rejected, then later embraced, by this manager and the other developer on the project). For a while, I was dealing with issues myself as they came up, but now with this issue, the things I was reading and trying were being closely watched, and I felt pulled back and forth between different avenues to pursue.

The following morning I was integrating the manager's solution, getting ready to commit. He was already continuing the online exchange. The thing he found was in the comments on the project's home page. It was one of the first things I should have found and tried, and I had missed it. He didn't need to say this; it came through loud and clear in his tone. My stock was falling fast.

The next workday I got an email from an upper manager: please meet this afternoon. At that meeting, I was let go.

I'll never know for sure, but I believe at least part of this was about personality. After spending some time and effort learning a tool, and considering switching tools, he decided I wasn't the pragmatic fast-mover he wanted. I didn't change direction fast enough based on his early comments about how I should approach snags I ran into.

Honestly, if I had seen this happen to the guy next to me, rather than been the target myself, I would have been walking on eggshells afterward.

Sigh, time to go try and be perfect again.

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