Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#61

Post by tptacek » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:18 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #40

tptacek wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a nonsensical assertion. In exactly what way am I worse off simply because some rich tool has a private jet or a Bugatti Veyron? I still enjoy a standard of living beyond the wildest imaginings of my great grandparents, or, for that matter, for the vast rural poor of Asia. The problem of wealth disparity in the US is exclusively one of burden sharing: disparity is a problem when those of lesser means are requ…

The wealthy bid up prices. Depending on the industry, you can buy equivalent good and services for much, much less than you can in America. Obviously this doesn't apply to an iphone, a private jet, or a Bugatti Veyron. But if you want a haircut or groceries, it applies. Likewise to a host of other goods and services that the poor spend money on. Give me bottom 10% in America ($10,500) and I'm very, very poor. There a…

The bottom 10% in America is not very poor, or even "poor", by world standards. The homeless in America have better health care today than Dwight Eisenhower had when he was President, and, obviously, better health care than the rural poor of China.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#62

Post by jballanc » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:20 AM UTC

This has been my experience...

> Your market value is higher elsewhere

While true, it's also slightly simplistic. It's more than just market value. There's an American mindset that has its plusses and minuses (like any mindset), but the ability to combine the plusses of the American mindset (entrepreneurship, risk taking, "fake it until you make it") with the plusses of foreign mindsets (in my case: high value on community, stubbornness, practicality) can be a potent mix.

> The quality-of-life/cost-of-living ratio is now much higher elsewhere

I'm reminded of when I lived in NYC, and friends would ask how I could afford it. My answer was that you value different things differently when price informs your choices. My first years in NYC I didn't have cable, didn't have a car, and even used dial-up from home. I didn't mind, though, because there was plenty to do without TV, easy public transit everywhere, and lots of cafes and libraries with network connections.

Similarly, I've found that where I am now a lot of things are cheaper (fruits, vegitables, dining out...medicine and health care) and some are much, much more expensive (cars, gasoline). Again, I let price inform my decision making, and overall I feel much happier and healthier now that I'm eating well, socializing more, and walking places.

> The Jobs Aren’t Coming Back

Put another way: the rest of the world is waking up! Is there really any reason that most programming jobs should be in Silicon Valley? Are people in Brazil, Germany, Malaysia, Kenya, etc. less capable of writing software? On top of this, many places are getting a "second chance" to grow their economies (esp. the service sector) without making the same mistakes as the US (allowing the skilled trade/manufacturing sector to languish).

> It’s time for everyone to grow up and become global citizens

The most shocking thing, for me, on leaving the US was realizing that there is almost no other country in the world where someone would dare consider themselves "educated" or "well cultured" yet have never been somewhere where the people did not speak their language.

Go where they don't speak English. Then you will understand how to communicate.

---

Also, for everyone here commenting about China and India, a small suggestion: look at Eastern Europe, Western Asia, Turkey, and the Middle East. The demographics are positively tantalizing for anyone looking for economies about to take off!

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#63

Post by tptacek » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:21 AM UTC

clicks wrote: post #46

tptacek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild guess: that's because you take clean running water for granted.

I see what you're saying, but I think you/rayiner are still missing the point. There are fresh graduates in America right now that can't find jobs. More clearly, these fresh graduates would be homeless/living in poverty were it not for a little help from their parents, either that or they're holding on to the last shreds of help that our welfare institutions provide. These folks could leave America and find jobs else…

Rayiner addressed that point directly: first, it's a first-world myth that recent college graduates in the US would be living in anything resembling poverty by world standards (again with the running water, flushing toilets, electricity, inspected produce, guaranteed emergency room health care); second, if your whole argument is that there might be more money abroad for a new grad, well sure, but don't romanticize that opportunity, because it comes at a cost.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#64

Post by tptacek » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:23 AM UTC

fractalsea wrote: post #49

tptacek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild guess: that's because you take clean running water for granted.

Yes, I take that for granted along with many other things. It doesn't mean that I have a less enjoyable/more for-filling lifestyle without them.

Where "enjoyable lifestyle" falls somewhere along the diarrhea spectrum from "chronic" to "intractable".

It's unfortunate that people here will think I'm being glib with this comment, since diarrhea kills more people in the developing world every year than cancer does in the US.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#65

Post by EGreg » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:26 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #32

enraged_camel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town. The real problem with that statement is that it misrepresents the problem. The fact that our poor live as well as middle class (or even upper class) in developing countries does not mean anything, because our poor do not compete for the same resources and opportun…

That is a nonsensical assertion. In exactly what way am I worse off simply because some rich tool has a private jet or a Bugatti Veyron? I still enjoy a standard of living beyond the wildest imaginings of my great grandparents, or, for that matter, for the vast rural poor of Asia. The problem of wealth disparity in the US is exclusively one of burden sharing: disparity is a problem when those of lesser means are requ…

Because the rich people drive up the prices in your local markets. I live in NYC, where the price of a shoebox apartment in Manhattan is sky-high (ignoring rent-controlled places). Why? Because tons of rich people keep apartments here. Had I lived in the middle of nowhere, I could have acres upon acres of land, a spacious, decked-out office, and gigabit internet, for much less than a two-bedroom apartment in NYC. Since everyone has to pay rent, this really affects you, but even if you somehow bunked with others, the everyday expenses such as a cup of coffee are more expensive in NYC. In Moscow and other cities it's even worse.

So yes, living among people who make much more than you obviously depresses your standard of living / cost of living.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#66

Post by bshastry » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:30 AM UTC

108 wrote: post #29

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #3

I think the math is a bit wrong. Your money actually doesn't go much farther in Beijing, Bangkok, New Delhi, Kuala Lumpur, etc... Some things might be cheaper (eating out) but many things will be more expensive (cars, iPads, decent clothes). You might be able to hire a driver for 2 or 3000 RMB a month in China, but you still have to buy the car for $4-50,000. At best, its basically a wash, and if you are American, yo…

That's right. Food and gas is cheaper back home (USA) than it is in India, where the cost of living is astronomical vis-a-vis the paycheck drawn by the average Indian. A per-item price comparison shows vegetables and meat are a lot cheaper (and cleaner) in the US than what I find in India. Metro cities like Mumbai and Bangalore are very expensive when it comes to rental costs, transportation costs and entertainment c…

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#67

Post by resu » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:31 AM UTC

pwim wrote: post #27

resu wrote: post #2

Other than teaching English abroad, how else can recent grads find work abroad? The article really drops the ball on that one and the meager links provided are useless. I spent nearly two years abroad in undergrad interning abroad, but even then, finding a relevant (not teaching English) full time job in Asia or Europe when you're in North America is extremely hard.

I got a job as a developer in Japan right after I graduated from University. I wrote about my experience here: http://www.tokyodev.com/2011/08/19/finding-a-job-as-a-ruby-d... Having an in demand skillset (like being a developer) opens up a lot of possibilities.

Interesting read, thanks for sharing!

I spent two summers in Tokyo in an investment bank, although I was too focused on having as much fun as possible to find what non-finance opportunities were available. Also, the prospect of working actual Japanese hours were not very exciting. How was the work-life balance at Ubit?

How is the market in Japan for (foreign) developers? If a recent grad were to follow your footsteps, how difficult would it be to find a decent and relevant job now, compared to 2006?

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#68

Post by EGreg » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:32 AM UTC

Being a big fish in a small pond has its perks. You can go for vacation to developing countries such as Thailand and live like a king. People would be willing to do whatever you want for money. Steak dinners would be $5. Obviously the internet lets you have much richer clients in Western countries subsidizing your lifestyle in developing countries.

But leaving all your family and friends behind to live there might not be for everyone. There was recently a nice article posted about relationships being more valuable to human beings than ambition: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/04/relationsh...

Not to mention, for a guy like me who is Jewish, and whose family would like to see him marry someone Jewish as well, moving to a country where there are very few Jews would just be decreasing my chances of starting a family. That's why it's good to travel for long periods when you're younger.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#69

Post by clicks » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:34 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #63

clicks wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying, but I think you/rayiner are still missing the point. There are fresh graduates in America right now that can't find jobs. More clearly, these fresh graduates would be homeless/living in poverty were it not for a little help from their parents, either that or they're holding on to the last shreds of help that our welfare institutions provide. These folks could leave America and find jobs else…

Rayiner addressed that point directly: first, it's a first-world myth that recent college graduates in the US would be living in anything resembling poverty by world standards (again with the running water, flushing toilets, electricity, inspected produce, guaranteed emergency room health care); second, if your whole argument is that there might be more money abroad for a new grad, well sure , but don't romanticize t…

> the running water, flushing toilets, electricity, inspected produce, guaranteed emergency room health care

You're still missing the point.

You emphasize guaranteed emergency care, but what about general non-emergency healthcare costs in America? If it's +1 for guaranteed healthcare in America, it's +1 for India when you can actually practically afford some life-saving x-ray or some surgery operation that costs literally 20X as much in America. Electricity is available in counties we're considering -- sure, it goes off intermittently but the results are not extraordinarily catastrophic. Practically speaking, the produce that the masses get is arguably better in a lot of 3rd world countries than it is in America -- less GMO, less carcinogens. I was born and raised in India -- my memory of fruits and vegetables/meat I ate there is SOOO much better than how it is here in America. We had flushing toilets, and we had drinkable water. And I am not even from a wealthy family, just normal middle class. My great-grandma lived to be 101, and my grandma right now in India is 103.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#70

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, May 02, 2013, 4:35 AM UTC

HunterV wrote: post #15

As someone who grew up living all around the world I have this to say: Watch the move "Lost in Translation" If you can deal with forever being isolated, even with friends, then by all means live overseas. You will always be an outsider, no matter how acclimated you become. If you're ok with that, then you'll be fine. Otherwise, stick to America, it really is an awesome country to live in.

This is exaggerated but more or less correct. Depends on the country. You can live in an expat bubble but the downside is that people leave all the time. And you will never be national local but after long enough you can be city local if that makes sense to you. Requires actually acclimating, learning the language and implicit norms etc. I'm not even remotely there yet but living in Shanghai beats living in Ireland.