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“Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

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Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#11

Post by purplelobster »

VLM wrote: post #8
pekk wrote: post #2

A culture where everyone has to be in the perfect 1%, or where everyone is informing on everyone, or where people are very actively competing for status and territory, is also one where nobody will show vulnerability or speak up or tell the truth, except as it seems strategic to do so.

Which shows the perfect meaninglessness of the netflix slide, the cognitive dissonance of it. "We fire all B performers regardless of effort". Think about that. Pretend you don't know what netflix does. I hope nuclear reactors are run by people like that. Oh that sounds like a good slogan for an open heart surgeon. Secret service agents? No, you say? Hmm how about space shuttle tile installation specialist? I've got…

Couldn't agree more. Every little startup and bigcorp think they need the Ninja Rockstar Astronaut Millionaire Cowboy 1% Hacker, while in fact they're just looking for someone to crank out some standard js or ruby for some social networking web app.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#12

Post by VLM »

purplelobster wrote: post #11
VLM wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which shows the perfect meaninglessness of the netflix slide, the cognitive dissonance of it. "We fire all B performers regardless of effort". Think about that. Pretend you don't know what netflix does. I hope nuclear reactors are run by people like that. Oh that sounds like a good slogan for an open heart surgeon. Secret service agents? No, you say? Hmm how about space shuttle tile installation specialist? I've got…

Couldn't agree more. Every little startup and bigcorp think they need the Ninja Rockstar Astronaut Millionaire Cowboy 1% Hacker, while in fact they're just looking for someone to crank out some standard js or ruby for some social networking web app.

Oh, they might need a minority of "A" level players for a couple of the really tough jobs. Whoever runs netflix routing and NAS gets a total tip of my hat to them and at least some of them must be "A" level. I bet they've got some guys who know a few things about video codecs too. On the other hand, the dude who files expense reports in the correct filing cabinet most of the time, well, lets be polite and claim its hard to say. Describing the entire corporate culture as "A" level is just laughable.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#13

Post by rmrfrmrf »

VLM wrote: post #10
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're working for a new company, this might be true. However, many established companies (like the one I work for now) have fewer benefits for hourly employees, not to mention the pay ceilings are much lower than salary. Paying hourly also has a lot of annoying caveats to it. Should I be clocked in for work-related functions? What about ones where I'm expected to be there but it's from 6pm-8pm at a restaurant (an…

Being treated with respect as a human being is a strange way to describe being treated as a second class citizen (Been there done that, on both sides of the argument BTW, and hourly was much more professional, much more humane) The answer to your questions BTW are yes, yes, yes if optional no if not, and depends solely on how paranoid the boss is and has nothing whatsoever to do with how finance pays you. The first t…

It would seem that we've had different experiences.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#14

Post by jwoah12 »

VLM wrote: post #12
purplelobster wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. Every little startup and bigcorp think they need the Ninja Rockstar Astronaut Millionaire Cowboy 1% Hacker, while in fact they're just looking for someone to crank out some standard js or ruby for some social networking web app.

Oh, they might need a minority of "A" level players for a couple of the really tough jobs. Whoever runs netflix routing and NAS gets a total tip of my hat to them and at least some of them must be "A" level. I bet they've got some guys who know a few things about video codecs too. On the other hand, the dude who files expense reports in the correct filing cabinet most of the time, well, lets be polite and claim its h…

Well to be fair, you have to compare the guy filing expense reports to his peers. He may be the best damn expense report filer in North America.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#16

Post by comrade_ogilvy »

VLM wrote: post #12
purplelobster wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. Every little startup and bigcorp think they need the Ninja Rockstar Astronaut Millionaire Cowboy 1% Hacker, while in fact they're just looking for someone to crank out some standard js or ruby for some social networking web app.

Oh, they might need a minority of "A" level players for a couple of the really tough jobs. Whoever runs netflix routing and NAS gets a total tip of my hat to them and at least some of them must be "A" level. I bet they've got some guys who know a few things about video codecs too. On the other hand, the dude who files expense reports in the correct filing cabinet most of the time, well, lets be polite and claim its h…

>Describing the entire corporate culture as "A" level is just laughable.

And it is an excellent means to cover up bad management. When expectations are unrealistic, then everyone is probably failing. It just boils down to office politics about who avoids blame.

It is a nice idea to always be A-level or work towards there -- that requires a significant investment in recruiting and training that few companies are actually interested in. But a company that cannot make good use of B-level work in most places surely has incompetent management.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#17

Post by VLM »

jwoah12 wrote: post #14
VLM wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, they might need a minority of "A" level players for a couple of the really tough jobs. Whoever runs netflix routing and NAS gets a total tip of my hat to them and at least some of them must be "A" level. I bet they've got some guys who know a few things about video codecs too. On the other hand, the dude who files expense reports in the correct filing cabinet most of the time, well, lets be polite and claim its h…

Well to be fair, you have to compare the guy filing expense reports to his peers. He may be the best damn expense report filer in North America.

True as an example its unfair to pick on one dude. BUT... if he's a "A" level hero 1% astronaut then statistics indicate at least 10 of his coworkers are just joe average, maybe 100.

See, here's the problem. You can get one, maybe two geniuses to found a company. Maybe even a couple peppering the whole company... But wikipedia claims they have over 2000 employees.

Can you have an organization full of geniuses? Sure, although its rare. Think of the institute for advanced studies in its glory days. Or Bell Labs in the good old days. If you twist definitions and turn the Manhattan Project into one org and only count the top physicists and not the rank and file, sure. A two thousand person video rental company, um, no, I don't think so.

Now the Kool-Aid drinkers could proclaim that they only hire personnel with Nobel Prizes in Physics. But 2000+ prizes have not been issued yet, and quite a few of those people are dead or otherwise unavailable, most (all?) of the early 20th century winners for example. Even worse the whole industry also claims in public they also only hire Nobel Laureates.

I guarantee that NFLX does not fire all B and below performers because there is not enough talent to pull it off industry wide especially with everyone else having the same ridiculous demand.

Frankly that's good. Who wants to work in an industry where 99% of the graduates are permanently unemployed and only 1% ever get to work? Or even worse, a society with 99% unemployment rate?

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#18

Post by rdl »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #7
mjewkes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying an hourly rate solves these problems. Our project managers discourage long work weeks because they add cost without delivering proportional value. Work weeks tend to be in the 20-25 hour range. We compensate by hiring about 30% more devs than average. The main disadvantage comes when a dev (often with a unique skillset) "owns" a particularly challenging piece of the project. Otherwise it works well.

If you're working for a new company, this might be true. However, many established companies (like the one I work for now) have fewer benefits for hourly employees, not to mention the pay ceilings are much lower than salary. Paying hourly also has a lot of annoying caveats to it. Should I be clocked in for work-related functions? What about ones where I'm expected to be there but it's from 6pm-8pm at a restaurant (an…

There are some hourly people who make more than salaries employers ("consultants" vs. "contractors", i.e. people hired for particular skill or experience vs. to fill a role, generally). There are some places where pretty much everyone but the very top management is some kind of hourly-billed contractor or consultant, which seems weird.

In practice there are usually client and contracting firm cultural solutions to the ambiguous billing situations. Generally the thing to avoid is giving people unaccounted-for discounts; it's better to bill for more time but then give an explicit discount, or at least to make it clear you're not billing for something, vs. just silently not charging for things -- otherwise it is taken for granted and expected.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#19

Post by aaronblohowiak »

VLM wrote: post #8
pekk wrote: post #2

A culture where everyone has to be in the perfect 1%, or where everyone is informing on everyone, or where people are very actively competing for status and territory, is also one where nobody will show vulnerability or speak up or tell the truth, except as it seems strategic to do so.

Which shows the perfect meaninglessness of the netflix slide, the cognitive dissonance of it. "We fire all B performers regardless of effort". Think about that. Pretend you don't know what netflix does. I hope nuclear reactors are run by people like that. Oh that sounds like a good slogan for an open heart surgeon. Secret service agents? No, you say? Hmm how about space shuttle tile installation specialist? I've got…

The thing is you need I be an A performer for your role. This could also be summarized as avoid the Peter principle.

Re: “Well, He’s Not Going to Get Very Far”

#20

Post by rmrfrmrf »

VLM wrote: post #8
pekk wrote: post #2

A culture where everyone has to be in the perfect 1%, or where everyone is informing on everyone, or where people are very actively competing for status and territory, is also one where nobody will show vulnerability or speak up or tell the truth, except as it seems strategic to do so.

Which shows the perfect meaninglessness of the netflix slide, the cognitive dissonance of it. "We fire all B performers regardless of effort". Think about that. Pretend you don't know what netflix does. I hope nuclear reactors are run by people like that. Oh that sounds like a good slogan for an open heart surgeon. Secret service agents? No, you say? Hmm how about space shuttle tile installation specialist? I've got…

There's a benefit to making a ridiculous statement like that, though: it makes firing decisions a lot easier. Have you ever worked with that employee--the one that, sigh, they do an OK job, but wow, you have to explain everything to them 700 different ways until you get on the same page. The same mistakes keep popping up over and over. You sit them down and explain what's up. They say they're trying and they're overwhelmed. You believe them and understand that yes, our company has a lot of stuff going on and it can be tough to get your bearings.

Months pass, and the employee is skating slightly below to just above the point of causing you more work. You've corrected some of the recurring mistakes they made when they first started, but now new ones are coming up. You make notes of the employee's progress and give honest feedback. They continue to improve. Slowly. Improving just enough so that HR has strong reservations about starting the termination process. You're stuck with a dud employee that, yeah, they're not absolutely horrible, but you know that you'd be much better off with an employee that could at least get things right the second time instead of the 20th.

"You shouldn't have hired them," I hear you say. It's not always the case that you hire them. I've "inherited" bad employees from predecessors in the past and have even had my boss transfer employees into my department that were doing even worse in other departments.

So yeah, if our company had any kind of policy like the one at Netflix, this entire process wouldn't even be a conversation. I just send the mediocre employee off riding into the sunset and hire someone that's a better fit with none of the fuss and BS.

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