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‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

wired.com

11–20 of 52 posts

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#11
post #3

This article seems like it is abstracting away what would actually make this experiment more interesting than, say, spinning a dinner plate in a vacuum in zero-g.

A dinner plate spinning in the vacuum is not in a ground state -- it has substantial kinetic energy that is being converted into heat and electromagnetic radiation as it spins, and it will gradually slow down and stop. (Veeery gradually.)

The theory here is that you can have a system that is already in a ground state, where it can't decay further, and is still spinning (and will spin forever without gaining or losing energy.)

I don't have the expertise to properly understand the details, but it seems like it's along similar lines as something like an electron 'orbiting' a nucleus in ground state -- unlike the plate, the electron will never stop 'orbiting' because it has no energy to lose.

The electron, though, is delocalized -- it's in every place around the nucleus at once. So there's no periodic motion involved. By contrast, this experiment will tag one of the atoms in the ring so we can watch it move periodically.

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#12
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A satellite in orbit is always accelerating as well, and will remain in constant motion if the orbit is far enough out (i.e. well beyond atmospheric drag). I'm about half-way through this and it feels more and more like it was written by someone who would also ask why a permanent magnet can support a load against gravity without expending any energy - it's the same fundamental attribution error. EDIT: In fact finishi…

> A satellite in orbit is always accelerating as well, and will remain in constant motion if the orbit is far enough out (i.e. well beyond atmospheric drag). If general relativity is correct, that system will generate gravity waves which will take away energy and the orbit will decay. This is a small effect, however, so we generally don't have to worry about it. E.g., Earth's orbit is decaying by about the width of a…

Wouldn't tidal forces influence Earth's orbit much more than gravitational radiation? Although I suspect both are far too small to measure on a human time scale.

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#14
Maybe I can help give insight into this topic to those without a physics background. Our current best theory that describes reality at the small scale is quantum mechanics. In quantum mechanics, each "system" -- a collection of particles that you are interested in -- corresponds to one wavefunction (literally, a mathematical function). Glossing over some details, this is a function of spatial coordinates (a vector r) and time (t). For example, if your system is hydrogen, your wavefunction is a function of two coordinates -- the electron's position and the proton's position -- and time. You can perform some linear algebra on this function to predict what state the system will be in at any future time. And you can also predict what your measurements (position, momentum, spin, etc.) of this system will be. The Schrodinger equation is what governs the evolution of the wavefunction. I'll refer you to Wikipedia if you want to know the details of that equation.

In chemistry you have what are called stationary states. These are solutions to the time-independent Schrodinger equation Hψ(r) = Eψ(r) [H is an operator; E is a scalar]. Now, when you plug ψ(r) into the time-dependent Schrodinger equation, you get Ψ(r, t) = exp(-iEt/hbar)ψ(r), where i is the imaginary unit, E is the energy, t is time, and hbar is the reduced Planck's constant. So you can see there is clearly a time dependence.

However, when you measure some property of a system, you aren't measuring the wavefunction but rather the results of some linear operator acting on the wavefunction (each operator corresponds to a probability distribution of what measurement you will get). So despite the fact that the wavefunction has a time dependence, your measurement probability distribution functions do not!

Now the other thing you need to know is that so far these stationary states all correspond to ground states. What is a ground state? It is the lowest energy level that a system can obtain. You might think that the different orbitals an atom can have in chemistry are all stationary states, but they're not. They can spontaneously decay to a lower-energy state. You need quantum field theory to prove that, and I don't even know how to do that, so I won't.

The deal with these time crystals is that Dr. Wilczek has proposed a lowest-energy system that corresponds to cyclical time-varying measurement probability distribution functions. So despite being a stationary state, your measurements depend on when in the cycle you take them! This has not ever been done experimentally, so it looks as though the Zhang and Li group are going to attempt to do so.

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#15

Time crystals and ion traps... I must have fallen asleep watching Doctor Who again. Joking aside, this could be the E=mc^2 of our generation. We take for granted that the speed of light is the universal speed limit and that DNA has a helical shape, but a century ago we knew neither of these things. The internet, in the scheme of things, is still in its adolescence (at best). The thing that fascinates and scares me mo…

"Joking aside, this could be the E=mc^2 of our generation."

No, it's way less interesting than it sounds. It's interesting, but the inevitable science fiction overtones make it sound way more interesting than it actually is. It's really "just" another "humdrum" implication of quantum mechanics. It's also another interesting way of exploring the mathematical relationship between the time and space dimensions, which itself, while very interesting, isn't as interesting as putting those words in a science fiction show would make them sound. It's the hard kind of interesting that involves years of mathematics study and the resulting profound realizations about the nature of the universe that raise two questions for every question answered, not the kind of interesting that produces aliens before the next commercial break. If you want the profound realizations, they're there for the taking, but it does take the work.

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#16
post #7
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's talking about acceleration, not really movement. But I don't think it's accelerating either, not really.

A satellite in orbit is always accelerating as well, and will remain in constant motion if the orbit is far enough out (i.e. well beyond atmospheric drag). I'm about half-way through this and it feels more and more like it was written by someone who would also ask why a permanent magnet can support a load against gravity without expending any energy - it's the same fundamental attribution error. EDIT: In fact finishi…

The ion lattice is in its ground state, it can't release any more energy to get into a lower state, but it moves. They couldn't get a lattice into the ground state until recently due to excess heat from contaminants in the "trap".

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#18

"How can something move, and keep moving forever, without expending energy? It seemed an absurd idea — a major break from the accepted laws of physics." An object in motion will remain in motion, until acted on by an external force. The real interesting thing here is that something can move, but have no energy - potential or otherwise. Unlike things we are used to, if a time crystal train hit you you wouldn't feel a…

Exactly.

The actual interesting thing about this crystal is that the atoms will spontaneously start spinning as you remove energy from the system. Ie, in the ground state (the lowest energy state) the atoms are in motion. This is in contrast to all the physical systems we are familiar with where the ground state is motionless.

The reason it is called a 'time crystal' is that the ground state 'breaks symmetry' in time in the same way that a regular crystal 'breaks symmetry' in space - in the sense that if you translate the system in space, you do not usually get back its original state, unlike a gas. And, this symmetry breaking occurs as you cool the system. Crystals self-organize in a periodic grid as you cool them from the liquid state, just as this time crystal will set itself in periodic motion as you cool it.

One consequence of the symmetry breaking is that the atoms will have to move either clockwise, or counterclockwise, and will "randomly" choose one of the two.

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#19

Maybe I can help give insight into this topic to those without a physics background. Our current best theory that describes reality at the small scale is quantum mechanics. In quantum mechanics, each "system" -- a collection of particles that you are interested in -- corresponds to one wavefunction (literally, a mathematical function). Glossing over some details, this is a function of spatial coordinates (a vector r)…

You sir can write well. Reading the article was essentialy meaningless. Your five paragraphs were insightful and helpful.

Re: ‘Time Crystals’ Could Upend Physicists’ Theory of Time

#20

Maybe I can help give insight into this topic to those without a physics background. Our current best theory that describes reality at the small scale is quantum mechanics. In quantum mechanics, each "system" -- a collection of particles that you are interested in -- corresponds to one wavefunction (literally, a mathematical function). Glossing over some details, this is a function of spatial coordinates (a vector r)…

(1) How can the ground state not be an energy eigenstate? By definition, the lowest-energy state has a well-defined energy (that is, the lowest energy) and therefore ought to be in an energy eigenstate?

(2) You said: "Our current best theory that describes reality at the small scale is quantum mechanics." I don't disagree, but I'd like to emphasize that "at the small scale" might not have been necessary. I think it's a shame when people think that quantum mechanics only applies to small things.

(3) The way that I understand time crystals is that they are analogous to real crystals. And just as the translational symmetry of a crystal creates a corresponding quasi-momentum for the momentum, so does the time-translational symmetry introduce a quasi-energy similar to energy. Is that correct? Perhaps it helps answer my first question.

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