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Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

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Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#221

Post by steveklabnik »

lobotryas wrote: post #211
criley wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publicity. He writes a blog "Path fired me for not breaking the oath" and then communities like this one will rally around that whistle-blower.

This assumes that Path (or any company) would be foolish enough to make their intentions clear. If a developer refused to implement a feature due to their ethics then the company would do the following: * Move engineer to different project * Set unrealistic goals/deadlines/expectations * After engineer fails, voice concern about performance * Set up performance review and improvement plan * After causing engineer to…

Yup. SOP in the food service industry is to give employees who are underperforming 4 hours per week, on the slowest shift, and just leave them there until they quit.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#222

Post by darxius »

smsm42 wrote: post #210
darxius wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. As a computer engineer in Canada, I must swear by the Code of Ethics because what I do (or potentially don't do) can cause harm. Ethics in computer-science-related fields are important and I think we do need a set of rules we can dogmatically follow like the Hippocratic Oath. Of course, the HO is different in that failing to follow can cause physical harm. However, the world is progressing quickly and mor…

So in Canada, software engineers never cause harm to anyone? Nice to know. >>>> I think we do need a set of rules we can dogmatically follow like the Hippocratic Oath. So you don't actually have to employ your own brain and your own moral judgement, because somebody already did it for you and wrote this nice set of rules, that you swore by Apollo to faithfully execute, without thinking, not unlike that box of wires a…

I think you're missing the point. The oath is to remind you to use your head, your best judgement and a body of ethics and to act in the interest of the public. Sure engineers still make mistakes, but the code of ethics isn't some magical document that eliminated human error.

Also, I think you're sort of merging the HO with the Code of Ethics for engineers in Canada -- two very different documents and I suggest you give them a read. And no, no one still thinks they're swearing to Apollo.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#223

Post by andrewhillman »

crazygringo wrote: post #34

How about another detail -- the fact that the message said the user had photos to share, when he didn't? There's annoying spam, and then there's straight-out-lying spam -- the "x has sent you a message, you need to create an account to view it" type. Just curious, is there a way to sue/fine a company like this for false advertising, essentially?

There's no way to sue, but I suppose the FTC could take action and fine.

They will claim it's a "bug"... albeit one of those "viral bugs" that seems to lead to topping the App Store download charts. These tactics make me think there's no such thing as organic growth within the app stores.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#224

Post by criley »

lobotryas wrote: post #211
criley wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publicity. He writes a blog "Path fired me for not breaking the oath" and then communities like this one will rally around that whistle-blower.

This assumes that Path (or any company) would be foolish enough to make their intentions clear. If a developer refused to implement a feature due to their ethics then the company would do the following: * Move engineer to different project * Set unrealistic goals/deadlines/expectations * After engineer fails, voice concern about performance * Set up performance review and improvement plan * After causing engineer to…

Honestly, if you refuse to do something on ethical grounds and then are moved around, you know what's going on. Most people aren't clueless to office politics and at that point it's your decision to blow the whistle or shut up and watch it happen in spite of your oath.

It's not like hospitals haven't contended with this exact thing for a very long time. The wills of surgeons/doctors and their hospital administrators do not always match up.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#225

Post by micampe »

jacquesm wrote: post #45

Path must really like thos FTC fines. Here's to hoping the next fine will exceed their cash reserves and we can put an end to this madness. The post is proof positive that path still uploads phonebooks from the app to their servers right after installing it.

> The post is proof positive that path still uploads phonebooks from the app to their servers right after installing it.

Is it? The texts were coming from his phone number, which suggests they were sent from his phone (not necessarily, I know, but you said "proof positive").

I don't know how Android text message sending works, but there is likely some rate limiting to how many texts you can send so they certainly could have been queued up to be sent later.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#226

Post by untog »

rdl wrote: post #196
maxcan wrote: post #64

I'm sure this will be downvoted to hell and back, but still: http://jesuschristsiliconvalley.tumblr.com/post/46539276780/...

Turning off the ringer on your phone is totally legit, though. I don't believe in interrupt-driven communication, unless it's mediated through a machine or some kind of filter. (I'll let a machine notify me if lots of stuff is down, or if one of a very small number of people call me, but that's about it. IIRC, pg's call went to voicemail a couple years ago.

Turning off the ringer on your phone is totally legit, though.

It is, but his stated reason for doing so is nothing if not totally insane.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#227

Post by obviouslygreen »

pessimizer wrote: post #193
obviouslygreen wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for the moral high ground, but it becomes a lot less simple when "pressured" means something like a combination of "sole breadwinner" and "ethical choice." Reality doesn't bend to our idealism, and businesses are grounded solely in reality (often to our detriment).

>when "pressured" means something like a combination of "sole breadwinner" and "ethical choice." I can't figure out what you mean by this. Are you saying that this behavior is only alright when you need the money?

Definitely not. I'm saying it's never "right" in a moral/ethical sense, but when you're put in certain (fairly common) positions, the moral high ground is not a feasible option for most people. It comes down to whether you consider stability for those who depend on you more or less important than doing or refusing to do something based on whether you consider it right or wrong... that's something that's easy to judge until you're in such a position.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#228

Post by mjolk »

angersock wrote: post #204
mjolk wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe it's time to create a Hippocratic Oath for developers to publicly commit to? This is silly. Stop trying to add grandeur to writing some code at X,Y startup/company. People don't die or get harmed when some social-messaging application spams someone. Code is a way to implement an idea. Most applications exist to make money. If this a shock to you, read the user agreement before installing/upgrading, uninstall t…

You really come off as an amoral jerk here. What happens if an app for job seekers texts your boss? What if a casual hookup site texts your new girlfriend--even though you signed up a year before meeting her? What happens if your app calls an old person and they crack a hip trying to answer a phone--when everyone that knows them personally knows not to call until they're awake and their caretaker is in? These may sou…

>You really come off as an amoral jerk here.

I'm okay with this. I'd rather be calculating than have my head in the sand about the business models of social networking what-have-you applications.

>What if a casual hookup site texts your new girlfriend--even though you signed up a year before meeting her?

While I don't and won't have to experience this, your imagined relationship suffers more from lack of trust and honesty than "some dumb app does some dumb, annoying thing."

>"we do it for the money lulz" is a shitty and stupid argument.

Don't Straw Man me. If my code was going to be used for something I perceive as evil, I'd leave the job.

Our industry doesn't need yet another pointless, embarrassing ethics/integrity campaign when the people writing the code don't care.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#229

Post by jrabone »

tedks wrote: post #218
bitcartel wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to nip this in the bud. Maybe it's time to create a Hippocratic Oath for developers to publicly commit to? A future Path developer could then refuse to implement an unethical "feature" by pointing out that the company had hired them with the full knowledge that the oath had been undertaken. I don't think the company would pink slip the developer, as they would probably want to avoid any attention being drawn…

Does this mean that we can't write software for drones anymore? What about software for missile guidance? Is that okay by this oath? Or do we as a community value not texting people at 6AM more than we value not killing people?

Strawman. And anyway plenty of software developers (and other engineers) won't work on armaments.

Re: Path texts my entire phonebook at 6 AM

#230

Post by mjolk »

darxius wrote: post #152
mjolk wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe it's time to create a Hippocratic Oath for developers to publicly commit to? This is silly. Stop trying to add grandeur to writing some code at X,Y startup/company. People don't die or get harmed when some social-messaging application spams someone. Code is a way to implement an idea. Most applications exist to make money. If this a shock to you, read the user agreement before installing/upgrading, uninstall t…

I disagree. As a computer engineer in Canada, I must swear by the Code of Ethics because what I do (or potentially don't do) can cause harm. Ethics in computer-science-related fields are important and I think we do need a set of rules we can dogmatically follow like the Hippocratic Oath. Of course, the HO is different in that failing to follow can cause physical harm. However, the world is progressing quickly and mor…

>I think it's our jobs to make sure we don't promote poor practice and un-ethical behaviour.

No, it's our responsibility as decent people. I don't need to sign some online pledge to keep myself from pushing people in front of trains. If I was the sort to harm others, why would I care about some meaningless online campaign?

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