Live data from Hacker News

A Local Revolution?

paulgraham.com

81–90 of 101 posts

Re: A Local Revolution?

#81
I think pg has misjudged what stage of the start-up revolution we're in.

He notes that the industrial revolution spread quickly because there were geographical areas with middle class populations and cultures that let people keep the large sums of money they made. He also notes that the culture necessary for large numbers of start-ups is not present in many areas.

IMO, we're no way near the railroad stage of the start-up revolution. I think we're in the early renaissance. The valley is like Venice in the 1400s. It's a very localised concentration of merchant traders and a culture of what we now call "modern values", meanwhile the rest Europe is living in the "dark ages". It wasn't until the plague spread across Europe and gave the surviving working classes more influence that the culture started to change. Even then, it's another 300 years before society really starts to change.

Looking at Europe in the 1400 hundreds you might well have thought that Venetian style modernism would be a very localised revolution and that these new fangled "banks" would only ever be established in small areas.

Start-ups are not the "railroads" of the industrial revolution. They are the "banks" of the industrial revolution.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#82
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that matter, I'm pretty convinced of my "radically moderate" views Of course you are. If you thought they were wrong, you wouldn't hold them as your views, would you?

I'm fairly willing to be convinced that, on some point or another, the best course of action lies close to what I held to be true, but differs by a few degrees. I also try and think about the holes in my argument and to consider the fact that I am not actually omniscient, and may very well be wrong about things (it is rare, but does happen:-). I was thinking about this, and part of the problem is that these threads o…

"moderate" is a cop-out. If you're a moderate now you would presumably have been a moderate 50 years ago. And the moderate of 50 years ago would be fringe today. The moderate of 100 years ago would be a radical today.

Don't surrender your reason to social contructivism.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#83
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government was much smaller at the time of the Industrial Revolution. Is this true? Is it really such an open-and-shut case? In some senses it is obviously true: There were a lot fewer people, a lot fewer filing cabinets and a lot fewer regulations. A lot of the tools needed for our big modern system -- hygiene, communications, literacy -- just weren't there yet. There were essentially no worker protections in the ea…

Yes, government was much smaller at the time of the Industrial Revolution, at least in the US. The federal budget, as a share of the GDP, was 3% right before FDR. Now it's some giant, horrible amount I don't even want to say out loud. Given this, the idea that there could be less (or about the same) regulatory interference of business today is, frankly, ludicrous. For one thing, simply reducing business budgets (taxe…

the idea that there could be less (or about the same) regulatory interference of business today is, frankly, ludicrous.

That depends crucially on which business you're talking about. Exceptions abound. Consider that example of the mail-order wine business. Do you know how hard it was to start such a business in the days before FDR? There was a lot of "regulatory interference", personified by guys like "Eliot Ness". You couldn't start a wine business in the USA, full stop -- unless you kept it underground. That era also had a devastating effect on our brewing industry that took a generation to recover from.

One could also ask some of the people who run porn sites about the complex history of "regulatory interference" in their business.

And, as we now know all too well, there have been times when regulation of the financial industry was much more strict than it is today. That's not a simple history, either: Corporations and stock exchanges have existed since the 17th century, but their degree of regulation has changed in complicated ways over time.

And a relentless focus on taxes obscures other forms of interference that were more important at certain times, for certain industries. However onerous it is to start a telecom-based company today, it was probably harder back in those days before FDR, when AT&T held a government-sanctioned monopoly over all of US telephony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Bell

In 1934, the government set AT&T up as a regulated monopoly under the jurisdiction of the Federal Communications Commission, in the Communications Act of 1934... by 1940 the Bell System effectively owned most telephone service in the United States, from local and long-distance service to the telephones themselves. This allowed Bell to prohibit their customers from connecting phones not made or sold by Bell to the system without paying fees. For example, if a customer desired a type of phone not leased by the local Bell monopoly, he or she had to purchase the phone at cost, give it to the phone company, then pay a 're-wiring' charge and a monthly lease fee in order to use it.

That the Internet managed to come into existence at all is the result of a complex interplay of antitrust law, the rise of government-funded research under guys like Vannevar Bush, and the Cold War (DARPA, which funded the Internet, was born in the days after Sputnik).

Today, our cable and phone companies also wield virtual monopolies with the help of the FCC. The situation is pretty bad in the USA. But I'm not sure it's significantly worse than it was back in 1940.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#84
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly willing to be convinced that, on some point or another, the best course of action lies close to what I held to be true, but differs by a few degrees. I also try and think about the holes in my argument and to consider the fact that I am not actually omniscient, and may very well be wrong about things (it is rare, but does happen:-). I was thinking about this, and part of the problem is that these threads o…

"moderate" is a cop-out. If you're a moderate now you would presumably have been a moderate 50 years ago. And the moderate of 50 years ago would be fringe today. The moderate of 100 years ago would be a radical today. Don't surrender your reason to social contructivism.

That's not a bad point, especially where it comes to how we treat other people. Indeed, I am not a moderate in everything, clinging to the center. However, in terms of government intervention in the economy, I am, and I also think it's far too large and interesting, and nuanced of a subject to adequately cover it in these sorts of forum. It's best left to be talked about over a bottle of good wine.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#85
Information technology is still just a fraction of the whole world economy. I don't think it is big enough for anyone to have the slightest idea of what the world will be like when we actually become an information-based economy.

I think the point that people like the google founders were many many times more productive than their equally-smart employees counterpat is important, but I think the same contrast can be found on people working on their free software projects compared to people working on their day-job projects.

I personally think that things like free software will have much more impact in the future economic revolutions than the concept of "start-up".

* sorry for my weak english :/

Re: A Local Revolution?

#86
Starting little businesses to write microblogging and photo sharing websites does not matter in the scope of human history. Comparing web startups to the industrial revolution?! You gotta be kidding me, I don't care how much ajax or standards compliance or user generated content your social grocery networking website has, you're deluding yourself.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#87
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the Industrial Revolution was localized mattered a lot to the regions that were left behind. It made them the victims in the ensuing era of colonialism.

That's true, but meaningless. History is only our friend when it applies. A lot of technology is now software based and thanks to the web, it is immediately distributed evenly to all those who have computers with internet access. While that still leaves out a large chunk of the world, it gives no substantial benefit to the place where the technology was born.

Open source and internet help to spread software source. But the mindset of how a piece of software solve users' problems are still limited the location that the software is created.

It will be more like a culture barrier. For a culture that has no sense of custom satisfaction, the user interface for e-commerce will never be as good as Apple or Amazon. We as technologists sometime forget a lot of our assumptions are based on our environment.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#88
post #43
post #3

> There are already signs that startups may not spread particularly well. The spread of startups seems to be proceeding slower than the spread of the Industrial Revolution Government was much smaller at the time of the Industrial Revolution. The theory of "regulatory capture" says that government is responsive to those firms that are affected by government regulation and have the money to buy favorable legislation. T…

We've funded lots of startups and we hardly ever see cases where they're crushed by big companies. The biggest exception is music. But though the record labels have certainly captured congress, their lawsuits tend to destroy startups before government regulation does.

>> But though the record labels have certainly captured congress...

And not just Congress:

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/76701/

>> their lawsuits tend to destroy startups before government regulation does.

In the broad sense, this is government regulation as well, but with the laws being written to transfer the regulatory function from the Executive branch to the Judicial branch.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#89
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the Industrial Revolution was localized mattered a lot to the regions that were left behind. It made them the victims in the ensuing era of colonialism.

That's true, but meaningless. History is only our friend when it applies. A lot of technology is now software based and thanks to the web, it is immediately distributed evenly to all those who have computers with internet access. While that still leaves out a large chunk of the world, it gives no substantial benefit to the place where the technology was born.

A lot of technology is now software based and thanks to the web, it is immediately distributed evenly to all those who have computers with internet access.

The first half is correct, but not the second half. A few examples: the software that runs on spy satellites, the software used to design stealth planes, the software used in sigint, "smart bomb" guidance systems, the software used to design nuclear weapons, etc.

Re: A Local Revolution?

#90
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it bad that in order to automatically generate binding legal documents, someone involved needs to be educated in the subtleties of legal language? A walking, talking lawyer should be personally responsible for the quality of the documents being generated. If there's no such person, you're putting the onus of validation on the client, which I think misses the entire point. In most of these cases, it's not the g…

The lesson to learn from your example is: don't work for someone without getting paid, unless you /really/ trust them. Not: we need the government to be our nanny. That results in all kinds of really bad side effects, including those illustrated by the person who started this thread.

I agree. Instead of trying to protect the masses from their own stupidity, why not work harder to educate the masses? I realize that there must be a balance in all things, but I think the scale is tipped heavily in the direction of the government holding our hands and making up our minds for us at the same time.

Thanks Mark

Post reply on HN