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The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

theatlantic.com

121–130 of 134 posts

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#121
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The more accurate title is: "top level developers in extreme shortage," Vs the article "134,780 H1-B visas that were approved in 2012." A good analogy to the debate is we're talking about a shortage of, and reasonable desire to import any legendary epic level multi-platinum award winning rock star, but in actual practice we're importing anyone who's ever touched a guitar in order to keep domestic wages low by pushin…

No, in actual practice we're doing both. Like I said before, anyone who portrays the current H-1B issue as purely one-sided is either underinformed or is pushing an agenda. 134,780 H-1B visas were approved in 2012, what is the distribution of salaries? The fact that the US let 134,780 people into the country last year says absolutely nothing about how many of these people are cheap, barely-qualified foreign labor, an…

> how many are the multi-platinum award winning rock stars

Probably none. The actual rock star level people can get O visas, which don't have a quota.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#122
post #3

A quote from the article also applies to the recent fad of promoting STEM education in K-12 etc. "Roughly twice as many American undergraduates earn degrees in science, technology, engineering, and math disciplines than go on to work in those fields." Maybe if my kids grade school gets their way, we can boost that to four times, or even more. Those numbers are almost as bad as recent law school grad stats. Needless t…

I can't begin to understand how you could make a comparison between a STEM career and music, art, or professional sports. I have worked, directly, for decades as both a professional musician and as a user interface designer, a web programmer, a graphic designer, and an internet marketer. I am a far more competent musician than any of the other skills. My resume in music is in the top 1/100th of a percent. I have been…

Let me quote one of your other posts completely out of context: "And I live in NYC"

The other 98% of us in tech do not live there, and most certainly do not have employment opportunities like you describe. Looking at the cost of living there, vs here, I kinda wonder about your claim of the mortgage being 25% of takehome, that doesn't add up unless you're in a really bad part of town or make an amazing amount of money. I live in what is locally about a 90th percentile income house, which in NYC would be what, like 5 million bucks? So that must be quite an income to pay that mortgage.

I will tip my hat in your direction WRT music, there's making a living, and there's making life worth living, so thanks for making music in whatever small way you're doin it.

However you just have to realize that if you don't live in Manhattan or SV that being "into" tech is a heck of a lot more like your music experience than like your tech experience. I've done extremely well and I'm incredibly lucky and/or arrogant depending on how I feel at the time of comment, but I'm well aware than for every one of me there's like 10 equally skilled guys sitting in a call center or pulling cat-5 cable or resetting passwords all day or even worse sitting at home, or working as a bartender or carpenter or truck driver or something. Nothing wrong with being a carpenter, something wrong with having a BSCS and your best offer is framing houses or driving a truck. I was just lucky, unlike the two people I'm talking about.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#123
post #42

This article makes a big mistake in conflating software development with STEM in general. It shows a stock photo of a guy looking through a microsope (btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant...), when the focus of the article is Microsoft, Google, and Facebook wanting to raise the H1-B visa cap so they can bring in more cheap coders from India. Is there a sh…

I feel like the key difference between STEM and software jobs is that STEM jobs are typically niche jobs, but software applies to all fields. Every company can benefit from a good software engineer so there's huge demand for it and I don't see it ending any time soon.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#124
post #74
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is massive, and growing, demand in all sectors for software developers, and our universities aren't graduating them faster than demand growth, and as a result software dev salaries are rising (or at least not falling). This is a direct contradiction to what's claimed in the article, namely that dev salaries are not rising to the extent that would be expected if there were a true shortage.

To throw some numbers at this question about salaries. Here is the Standard Offer for a college hire Level 59 Microsoft SDE (Developer) to Seattle over the years as I've observed them. 2005-2006: 70k 2007-2008: 80k 2009-2010: 85/90k (there was a macro recession here) 2011-2012: 100k/105k 2013: 105k--110k (tbd) In 6 years that's a 50% increase. What other industry has as much salary growth for front-line or entry-leve…

I think Microsoft is sort of a special case. Fifteen years ago they could attract the best and the brightest with below-market salaries, both because they dominated the software and computer industries (so your stock options were worth a lot, and your work would be on a computer in every office and every home), and because it was a fantastic place to work.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#125
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite a claim there--would you mind elaborating on your reasoning? Perhaps it's just due to my current existence in a very productive city, but STEM (and vocational training) seem to be both very much in demand and rewarded.

Alright enough enough I apologize for the somewhat curt answer above stop downvoting me. I'll be more verbose and more polite. Estimate a ratio of "we need more STEM" vs "we need less STEM" in .biz, .gov, mainstream media, etc. Does anyone other than internal "tech" sites ever discuss how the pool is too big and getting too large and maybe we need licensing and unionization and apprenticeships or some way to shrink i…

To your point about demand: there already exists (in some fields at least) certs you need to legally do certain types of work. To the best of my knowledge, only a certified PE can sign off on a bridge design, structural analysis, etc.

To your point about unemployment and the glut of STEM grads:

There's two things going on here: whether or not we want STEM grads, and whether or not we want to employ them.

I posit that yes, we want STEM grads. Unless you want to go into academia and focus on the humanities (and in turn deal with the circlejerking that goes on there, or at least appears to go on there; there is a credible case to be made that this is true) STEM is a baseline training you must have to not end up in the service industry. You learn to create things--real, tangible things that progress the race--or you're ultimately fucked.

We can't with a straight face recommend that our kids become English majors or medieval studies majors in this economy--I'd encourage my kid to take those courses on the side (you always need breadth!) but not to forsake an employable skill set. There will always be time for reading, for books, for learning and arguing and doing all those things that make the humanities wonderful and rewarding; picking up an education in hard sciences or engineering is hard, and should be attempted because it doesn't lend itself to being a hobby.

So, no, I think the push for "we need a larger pool of nominally-capable STEM grads" is totally reasonable.

The other question, though, is do we employ them?

The difference between a competent engineer and an awesome one (substitute coder, developer, or whatever) is huge. It makes sense that an innovating company is going to want the best of the best, and that thus we expect the employment percentages to reflect that. As for the blub programmers, there are many companies that are past innovation and thus can use ass-in-chair devs to maintain their COBOLS and SQL queries. The existence of the large STEM pool helps the long-tail of companies that need those okay devs.

I think it's a really complicated subject, and there is a lot to explore.

I'm more concerned, honestly, with the seeming derpiness of our brethren in regards to politicizing their self-interest: shit like the DMCA, state taxes on net commerce, etc. all seem to fly because the tech industry (rivaling if not exceeding energy, healthcare, and finance in importance to the US economy) doesn't protect its interests. For fuck's sake, it's like we're still the stereotypical 20th century nerd picked on in school and letting ourselves get bullied by the status quo. I'm more worried about us growing a collective spine than getting screwed by a .biz/.gov/.edu conspiracy.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#126
post #37

So... after I got my green card (was on H-1B), my base salary skyrocketed from around 110k-ish to 150k

I have an H-1B and already make more than you, so that doesn't mean that H-1B will prevent you from demanding a high salary. I have had to switch jobs though and reset the Green Card process though, which is a bit nervewreking.

Out of curiosity, having brought up the subject:

What the hell do you do that justifies that >150K USD, especially if you aren't a founder? Are you a founder? What's going on?

I'm genuinely curious.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#127
post #16

As someone who has been working as a software developer for five years since graduating, the claims made by this article are completely contrary to my personal experience. Finding good developers is hard. We spend months trying to hire for positions, sometimes interviewing dozens of people, before we find someone. And we pay well, use modern technologies, have a great group of existing developers, and don't expect an…

What is a good developer? What is your definition?

How do you determine that in the hiring process?

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#128
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't begin to understand how you could make a comparison between a STEM career and music, art, or professional sports. I have worked, directly, for decades as both a professional musician and as a user interface designer, a web programmer, a graphic designer, and an internet marketer. I am a far more competent musician than any of the other skills. My resume in music is in the top 1/100th of a percent. I have been…

Let me quote one of your other posts completely out of context: "And I live in NYC" The other 98% of us in tech do not live there, and most certainly do not have employment opportunities like you describe. Looking at the cost of living there, vs here, I kinda wonder about your claim of the mortgage being 25% of takehome, that doesn't add up unless you're in a really bad part of town or make an amazing amount of money…

I live in a modestly-sized Brooklyn apartment which I bought before the real estate bubble. Not in a 90th percentile house. So I can afford to play music.

For perspective: I am not making music in a small way, I am an extremely fortunate musician who has worked with legends and toured the world many times, I have played Lolapalooza and the Sydney Opera house, I cowrote one of the most talked about records in the past few years and I have released a bunch of music solo and with my own bands as well.

It is still easier for me to make a buck pushing pixels. I don't know, maybe I am a genius at computers and absolutely suck at music. I consider that possibility at least 3 times a week.

But mostly, it just seems like one is a lot easier than the other. I talk to guys all the time who are the elite of the elite world class musicians, and they have to really hustle to make ends meet.

YMMV.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#129
post #42

This article makes a big mistake in conflating software development with STEM in general. It shows a stock photo of a guy looking through a microsope (btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant...), when the focus of the article is Microsoft, Google, and Facebook wanting to raise the H1-B visa cap so they can bring in more cheap coders from India. Is there a sh…

> btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant... Actually, this is pretty common, especially if you are doing fluorescence microscopy (complete derail from your main point, sorry): - The optics leading to the eye-piece is usually superior to the quality of the camera. You'll have a cleaner, crisper picture looking through the eyepiece - Most cameras tend to have…

I've done this sort of microscopy and can verify everything polyfractal says.

EDIT: sadly, I can also verify that there are no jobs in science :(

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but they can't whiteboard even simple problems. Not sure how accurate that statement is, but as quality software is not written on whiteboards under pressure you may be looking at the wrong things. There's a guy here that frequently brings up the work-sample test, and some data exists confirming it to be a indicator.

Do you mean to suggest work-sample tests are superior to whiteboards?

In an coding interview situation, yes. Whiteboards can still be useful, as always it depends.

I suppose the point is that not everyone responds well to the pressure and on-the-spot character of coding on a whiteboard. As real-world coding is never expected immediately in front of a powerful person, you can be selecting for less relevant qualities.

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