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The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

theatlantic.com

81–90 of 134 posts

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#81
post #54
post #42

This article makes a big mistake in conflating software development with STEM in general. It shows a stock photo of a guy looking through a microsope (btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant...), when the focus of the article is Microsoft, Google, and Facebook wanting to raise the H1-B visa cap so they can bring in more cheap coders from India. Is there a sh…

> There is massive, and growing, demand in all sectors for software developers, and our universities aren't graduating them faster than demand growth, and as a result software dev salaries are rising (or at least not falling). This is a direct contradiction to what's claimed in the article, namely that dev salaries are not rising to the extent that would be expected if there were a true shortage.

Because they're not rising. Or rather more accurately, because only one segment of the industry is rising while the rest stay stagnant.

The offers being thrown around by Facebook, Google, et al, aren't anything to scoff at, and as another poster pointed out already, have gone up substantially in a just a few short years (that 50% number is accurate for new grads, it's higher for those with experience).

But the bulk of programmers in the country don't work at Facebook, or Google, or Microsoft. Nor are they forging the bleeding edge future of consumer/enterprise tech. They're doing the unglamorous, not often discussed IT grunt work in the back office of some corporate headquarters.

Their salaries are stagnant, and they are stagnant regardless of H-1B numbers specifically because the supply-demand curve in that leve of the industry sucks. And because our statistics put the $45K VB6 coder in the same category as the $200K+ Google engineer, the rise in one segment of the industry is largely hidden.

There is a danger to making decisions based on averages.

It's strange to me how every time the tech immigration debate comes up Facebook, Google, Microsoft, and co. are beaten to a pulp. They're the ones actually importing people at above market rates, they're the ones handing out $110K offers to new grads and $150-200K offers to even intermediate level coders. They're not the boogeyman under your bed.

Whereas actual exploitative employers like Infosys are barely mentioned. In fact, none of the infamous programming sweatshops are even named in this article. How is that the actual bad actors are facing none of the media scrutiny while the only good (or neutral) actors get all the blame?

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#82
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about accounting makes it inherently less outsourceable than programming? In a world where STEM is not a practical career, presumably because it's all done in low-wage countries overseas, how is accounting still being done in-house?

Strange as it sounds, fraud prosecution. If a software dev lies or the product is buggy nothing really happens to anyone, but at least in theory a fraudulent or incompetent accountant could go to jail, and that's not happening in Outsourceland, so fundamentally at least some of it has to be done locally. Most of the lowest level of data entry and paper shuffling has long since been disposed of via automation, so alre…

Well, I think this is shortsighted. H1-B is 'bad' because it's increasing the number of workers competing for the same pool of STEM jobs. Steering your kids towards accounting increases the number of workers competing for the same pool of accounting jobs.

Except, I think STEM associates a lot more with 'growth industry' than accounting.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#83

I don't doubt that companies are trying to get a piece of legislation passed that allows them to pay employees less. Increasing margins, that's what companies do. I do take issue with the idea that the talent shortage is a myth. I work for a company willing to pay a six figure starting salary plus good benefits in what's supposed to be a recession and we cannot fill our headcount. My team has been looking to fill 2 h…

I took a look at some of your past posts WRT this job search.

Are you looking for a developer who is smart and experienced and can intelligently talk while whiteboarding stuff? Solve problems, figure out solutions, self teach continuously and knows how to use google search with a proven successful track record?

Or are you looking for a Redhat admin who uses mac minis and codes sysadmin stuff in python and uses puppet for systems administration and the play framework under Java?

I'm not looking for work, I'm cool where I'm at. Under criteria #1 I'd be be your dream candidate. Under criteria #2 I, along with 99.999999% of the tech population, would never make it past the HR filter...

Lets see I've only got 15 years experience with Debian of which 11 is a Debian Developer, you and I know I could figure out Redhat almost instantly but HR will filter me out by keyword. I shut off my last mac mini last month although my wife still has one intel one running so that's probably not going to make my resume, you and I know that's not a huge issue but HR will filter me out for not having current mac experience (last booted 2 months ago or so). I mostly code little sysadmin scripts in Perl (CPAN, really) or just shell script and you and I know that a guy who understands Perl, Ruby, C, and a couple other languages will figure out how to use the tab key and a couple google searches later I'll be productive in python, but HR will filter me out. Shockingly enough we both use puppet so we'll get along famously and HR won't filter me out, at least for that, unless they do something stupid like filter on version number, I'm using 2.7 here at work so if you're still using 2.6 I'll get filtered out by HR. I've been fooling around with the Play framework but I've been using Scala, really as a tool to learn Scala, that and project euler puzzles in Scala, so you and I know that someone who knows Play can probably transition from Scala to Java with little effort, but HR will surely filter me out. By criteria #2 in this paragraph I'd be amazed if you find even one fully qualified applicant in the entire world, as you claim is happening.

At my current job while talking to tech people I can say that any middle to high end LAMP jack of all trades guy with some DBA and some systems analyst background could do the majority of it, and/or figure out the rest on their own if they are smart and have google handy, just like I did. But you know HR would describe my job as an insane laundry list that virtually no human being in the world other than myself actually simultaneously knows.

Or you might have pay issues. I don't live in a sand state so I don't make much compared to SV or Manhattan, but depending on if you use suburb, county, or state income I'm making somewhere around 90th to 95th percentile family income and expect to continue to be rewarded at a similar level. I talked to an employer in Mountain View who offered substantially more money, unfortunately not enough as that would literally mean moving my family from a (small) landed estate in the 2nd wealthiest suburb in the region to, unfortunately, something like chef boyardee every day in a cardboard box under an overpass in silicon valley. So its possible you might have salary issues. If no one applies maybe you're offering $15K for a $150K job. There's a local network admin position that hasn't been filled for years advertising $60K for a CCIE, which means they're paying a H1B $50K/yr and using the non-response to the ad to "prove" they have to import. That doesn't mean there's a shortage of network administrators in the area.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#84
post #42

This article makes a big mistake in conflating software development with STEM in general. It shows a stock photo of a guy looking through a microsope (btw why is he looking through the lens if the microscope is plugged into a monitor? Seems redundant...), when the focus of the article is Microsoft, Google, and Facebook wanting to raise the H1-B visa cap so they can bring in more cheap coders from India. Is there a sh…

> But programming is not STEM, and these jobs are not scientific research jobs. STEM stands for 'Science Technology Engineering Mathematics'. Programming is part of the middle 'TE' bit plus a little of the 'M'.

That's a problem with the definition of "STEM." It's a categorical grouping that doesn't reflect any real relationship. Building web applications is not even remotely related to writing research papers about microbes or subatomic particles. It's a completely different job market. When people say "there is a shortage of STEM graduates" they usually just mean CS graduates. But the journalists writing this are too non-technical to know the difference, so they try to refute this by pointing to statistics that show the US has plenty of STEM graduates. Too bad they're mostly biologists and not programmers!

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is massive, and growing, demand in all sectors for software developers, and our universities aren't graduating them faster than demand growth, and as a result software dev salaries are rising (or at least not falling). This is a direct contradiction to what's claimed in the article, namely that dev salaries are not rising to the extent that would be expected if there were a true shortage.

Because they're not rising. Or rather more accurately, because only one segment of the industry is rising while the rest stay stagnant. The offers being thrown around by Facebook, Google, et al, aren't anything to scoff at, and as another poster pointed out already, have gone up substantially in a just a few short years (that 50% number is accurate for new grads, it's higher for those with experience). But the bulk o…

That's an interesting point. So we can differentiate between top-talent coders who are in high demand from top companies, and the bulk of programmers working for far less at companies like Infosys, Wipro, etc.

But who are Facebook, Google, Microsoft (not to mention, Infosys, Wipro, etc.) trying to hire through the H-1B program? Top talent? Average coders? Why doesn't Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc., first recruit from the masses of underpaid Infosys developers? This would force the "bad actors" to improve as well.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#86
post #74
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is massive, and growing, demand in all sectors for software developers, and our universities aren't graduating them faster than demand growth, and as a result software dev salaries are rising (or at least not falling). This is a direct contradiction to what's claimed in the article, namely that dev salaries are not rising to the extent that would be expected if there were a true shortage.

To throw some numbers at this question about salaries. Here is the Standard Offer for a college hire Level 59 Microsoft SDE (Developer) to Seattle over the years as I've observed them. 2005-2006: 70k 2007-2008: 80k 2009-2010: 85/90k (there was a macro recession here) 2011-2012: 100k/105k 2013: 105k--110k (tbd) In 6 years that's a 50% increase. What other industry has as much salary growth for front-line or entry-leve…

Two things that make me suspect this information is anecdotal rather than from a hiring manager (though I could be wrong):

1) I left MSFT around 2006, but the offers I made to (admittedly, mostly blue chip) candidates in 2002-2004 were closer to 80k and not even at the top end of the L59 level band. I'm not sure those early year numbers are quite spot on.

2) The initial offers are set for the middle of the L59 compensation range/band. As those bands went up, so did all of the others - I guarantee the L59 band is not above the L60 band. If you got hired in 2006, you're at least L62 by six years later (or you would have been managed out, in any non-disfunctional org). Even if you'd been camping and never made L63 (which is a big bump), you would get raises as the midpoint for the band moved over the years. Otherwise, it raises very serious issues with your group's HR generalist about why you have a L62 who's being paid outside (below or above) the acceptable range around the salary band and the manager would have been encouraged to either motivate or manage out the employee, if they really didn't deserve raises to take them back into the correct compensation range.

Microsoft is disfunctional about many things, but the HR generalists were pretty good at tracking and running numbers and asking very hard questions about people who were over/under-compensated or stagnating at a low level (sub-L63).

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#87
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're not rising. Or rather more accurately, because only one segment of the industry is rising while the rest stay stagnant. The offers being thrown around by Facebook, Google, et al, aren't anything to scoff at, and as another poster pointed out already, have gone up substantially in a just a few short years (that 50% number is accurate for new grads, it's higher for those with experience). But the bulk o…

That's an interesting point. So we can differentiate between top-talent coders who are in high demand from top companies, and the bulk of programmers working for far less at companies like Infosys, Wipro, etc. But who are Facebook, Google, Microsoft (not to mention, Infosys, Wipro, etc.) trying to hire through the H-1B program? Top talent? Average coders? Why doesn't Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc., first recruit f…

Yes, they're trying to hire top talent through the H-1B program. Immigration status is orthogonal to talent.

That's the reason they're generally not trying to recruit from the masses of underpaid infosys developers.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#88
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To throw some numbers at this question about salaries. Here is the Standard Offer for a college hire Level 59 Microsoft SDE (Developer) to Seattle over the years as I've observed them. 2005-2006: 70k 2007-2008: 80k 2009-2010: 85/90k (there was a macro recession here) 2011-2012: 100k/105k 2013: 105k--110k (tbd) In 6 years that's a 50% increase. What other industry has as much salary growth for front-line or entry-leve…

Two things that make me suspect this information is anecdotal rather than from a hiring manager (though I could be wrong): 1) I left MSFT around 2006, but the offers I made to (admittedly, mostly blue chip) candidates in 2002-2004 were closer to 80k and not even at the top end of the L59 level band. I'm not sure those early year numbers are quite spot on. 2) The initial offers are set for the middle of the L59 compen…

I don't know what all that Microsoft-specific talk means, but you can confirm his numbers by checking the H1-B wage data from MS. I don't recall what the numbers are, but I recall it being fairly close to those supplied in recent years.

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#89

I don't doubt that companies are trying to get a piece of legislation passed that allows them to pay employees less. Increasing margins, that's what companies do. I do take issue with the idea that the talent shortage is a myth. I work for a company willing to pay a six figure starting salary plus good benefits in what's supposed to be a recession and we cannot fill our headcount. My team has been looking to fill 2 h…

> but they can't whiteboard even simple problems. Not sure how accurate that statement is, but as quality software is not written on whiteboards under pressure you may be looking at the wrong things. There's a guy here that frequently brings up the work-sample test, and some data exists confirming it to be a indicator.

Do you mean to suggest work-sample tests are superior to whiteboards?

Re: The Myth of America's Tech Talent Shortage

#90
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To throw some numbers at this question about salaries. Here is the Standard Offer for a college hire Level 59 Microsoft SDE (Developer) to Seattle over the years as I've observed them. 2005-2006: 70k 2007-2008: 80k 2009-2010: 85/90k (there was a macro recession here) 2011-2012: 100k/105k 2013: 105k--110k (tbd) In 6 years that's a 50% increase. What other industry has as much salary growth for front-line or entry-leve…

Two things that make me suspect this information is anecdotal rather than from a hiring manager (though I could be wrong): 1) I left MSFT around 2006, but the offers I made to (admittedly, mostly blue chip) candidates in 2002-2004 were closer to 80k and not even at the top end of the L59 level band. I'm not sure those early year numbers are quite spot on. 2) The initial offers are set for the middle of the L59 compen…

> I left MSFT around 2006

The company changed significantly since then. Bill left. There was a layoff (well, a couple, but the first was a black swan nonetheless). There is a new review system and new rules about comp.

It's not the same place you remember. I really liked the MSFT around 2006, too :)

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