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Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

greenheartgames.com

221–230 of 395 posts

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#221

Since the devs uploaded the game on bittorrent themselves, isn't it now implicitly legal to share that copy? Obviously not the unaltered copy, but if you upload something to which you own the copyright to bittorrent, you must be either implicitly giving people the right to share it with others, or you're entrapping them into committing a copyright violation. Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people int…

> isn't it now implicitly legal to share that copy?

That may well be considered giving permission. However, since they are interested in the social aspect, not the legal aspect, that doesn't matter. The social assumption is that a game you get from a torrent is pirated.

> Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people into committing a copyright violation?

(Ignoring for the nonce that in America you can sue anyone for anything) no. No one got "tricked." No one went out to buy a copy of this game and ended up on the torrent by accident.

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#222
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I knew there was some criticism of SimCity's simplified tax model in the U.S. some years ago (a simple inverse relationship between tax rates and business growth) Isn't that pretty much accurate? I'm not aware of any serious theory postulating that raising taxes will have any non-negative effect on economic growth in and of itself. Where it breaks down is once you account for what the tax dollars buy. If government…

There may be some kind of relationship, but it's almost certainly not a linear one. I don't think I could summarize the research on the subject (there is a lot, and it's not my area), but it seems to strongly depend on the business, stickiness of various quantities, the specific tax rates, and other factors. Part of the problem is that economies are basically nonlinear dynamical systems, and nonlinear systems tend to…

That sounds like a complicated way of explaining the broken window fallacy. "Maybe the economy will be better off if the glazier has the money because he will spend it better than the butcher whose window was broken." In specific circumstances that can really be true, but in general there is no reason to expect it to be, and unless you somehow know that it is, breaking the window is more likely to cause a net loss than a net gain.

I think the "economies are complicated" explanation is the wrong one for the point you're trying to make. If you can't predict what's going to happen, and taxes usually (but not always) result in lower growth, you're usually going to lose by raising taxes. And when taxes are broad-based, this is very likely to be the case indeed. Take "usually" and average it over enough repeated iterations and you get something that looks a whole lot like "always."

The place you can win just by raising taxes is where you set out to tax something that it would be economically beneficial to destroy through economic disadvantage. For example, one of the problems with sustainable energy has always been that they could achieve cost parity with fossil fuels, but only by gaining economies of scale that they couldn't do without first achieving cost parity, so you have the chicken and egg problem. If you tax fossil fuels at a sufficient rate then that in and of itself solves the chicken and egg problem, which allows sustainable energy to increase economies of scale and become even less expensive, in the long term even less expensive than untaxed fossil fuels (especially when accounting for externalities). I assume this is what you're referring to as regime-switching. But you don't, as a general rule, get that sort of thing by imposing broad-based taxes or specifically taxing anything that you wouldn't like to discourage the consumption of, you get it by correctly predicting the outcome of a targeted tax and intentionally destroying something undesirable through taxation. (Which I don't think Sim City allowed you to do.)

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#223
So, you just released a game after what was likely a big investment in heart, time, and money and you haven't pulled any money back out yet? Did you expect something different after such a short period of time?

Also, you created a game that has pulled in $1600 in revenue so far and you're thinking that $24k worth of revenue is just not coming in because you can measure the freeloaders. Those freeloaders aren't your customers and likely never will be.

Focus on why 214 people bought the game and make them so happy that they will support you and the extended marketing of the game.

Had you not spent the hours developing, testing, etc. these features and trying to trick worthless freeloaders into exposing themselves for the sake of rhetorical blog posts, you could have improved your bottom line. You COULD have added features important to paying customers.

Also, the sad freeloaders posts stink of fabrication. They may well not be, but my cynicism puts together a picture of a hacker-news-abuse viral marketing scheme. Every link in the chain has an unsoiled feel to it. The game is about a game dev company, not FPS gore. The freeloaders write in full sentences and precisely nail talking points as if they came from a game industry association. The dev has taken great care to handle freeloaders gently in the post. exposing everything. Even if this were a marketing scam, the backlash would be ho-hum because everything is just so meek.

AND... of course there's an actionable pitch and link thrown right in there. You were supposed to hold back and wait for the crowd to demand links.

This game always had a very limited audience. RPG of a gaming software development company? Plan the scale and scope of your project accordingly.

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#224
Brilliant. Really enjoyed this. Also enjoying this lively thread.

There's an awful lot of strange rationalization going on in the comment. For those of you who point out "Hey a lot of those pirated people aren't going to pay anyways!" here's a sobering fact. If just 7% of those pirated copies were paid this developer would have DOUBLED first day sales. Could be the difference between getting to work on their dream, hiring another dev, or calling quits on the whole thing. 7%

I have a hard time believing 10% of those pirates are not just cheap, lazy folks who - per the irony of the comments - are the first to squawk if they ever feel short changed in life "The steal because it's easy" is a great way to encourage draconian measures. I'd be a little more fired up if we were inclined to self police than rationalize away.

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#225
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so in other words, they pirated PC games, and used their limited resources to buy the games they couldn't pirate. Thus, the total amount of money they spent had been the same whether they pirated or not (just distributed differently, to different platforms). Had they not been able to pirate PC games, they might've spent a few more coins on PC games, and a few less coins on the xbox games - the industry wouldn't have…

It seems as if his friends buys game that can't be pirated and pirates games that can be pirated. Yet somehow you come to the conclusion that they would still buy for the same amount if pirating wasn't possible?

>they would still buy for the same amount if pirating wasn't possible? //

I thought he simply said they would spend the same amount. So they would consume less games and so have less "cultural" experiences if they couldn't pirate some games:

So, like, if they'd pirated Gears 1 and bought Republic 2 [made up names] then next period they might have bought Gears 2, but then would have pirated Republic 3 and ArmsRace 1.

With stronger anti-piracy measures Gears 1 comes out at the same time as Republic 2 but they can only buy one so they get Republic 2. Next period they get Republic 3 because they don't want to risk the new ArmsRace 1.

In both scenarios they bought 2 games - ie spent/bought the same amount. In the second they played 3 more games than in period 1. The makers of Gears benefited from piracy by winning a convert to their franchise (but notably the industry didn't gain in this scenario).

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is , for everyone who will happily compensate the artist if they feel they got value there are probably ~100 people who will just keep it for free even if they feel they had value.

That's not really a problem, unless you have some server costs or something. The question game developers should be asking is not "How many people will illegally copy it?" but "How many people will buy it?" It doesn't matter if there are 100 free riders for 1 customers, as long as you have enough customers.

It doesn't matter if there are 100 free riders for 1 customers, as long as you have enough customers.

I cannot put into words how profoundly this line of thinking upsets me. It is, quite literally, the antithesis of Western society.

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#227
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be some kind of relationship, but it's almost certainly not a linear one. I don't think I could summarize the research on the subject (there is a lot, and it's not my area), but it seems to strongly depend on the business, stickiness of various quantities, the specific tax rates, and other factors. Part of the problem is that economies are basically nonlinear dynamical systems, and nonlinear systems tend to…

That sounds like a complicated way of explaining the broken window fallacy. "Maybe the economy will be better off if the glazier has the money because he will spend it better than the butcher whose window was broken." In specific circumstances that can really be true, but in general there is no reason to expect it to be, and unless you somehow know that it is, breaking the window is more likely to cause a net loss th…

My point is more that SimCity doesn't attempt to model a complex dynamical system at all. It just defines certain aggregate relationships as true. That approach can be fun for a game, but also encodes ideological assumptions— not facts, but simplified models.

If you try to build a dynamical system as the model, things get weird very fast. Even in simple ones you can build as toys, there is a lot of system-internal behavior: there are feedback loops, oscillations, attractors. Minor changes can have significant counterintuitive effects, if they dampen or excite various resonances in the system (which we're assuming here is a stand-in for "economics of a city"). That kind of Sim City I'd be very interested in. :)

But would it be a fun game? Quite possibly not: players really tend not to find complex and chaotic simulations very fun, when the knobs affect the outcome in ways that are too indirect. Chris Crawford found that in a few of the games he made: a lot of players found Balance of the Planet, which tried to model all sorts of complex ecological effects, frustrating at best.

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition, any game you play that you can't master on day one is a shitty experience. That's an exceedingly hard customer expectation to meet: a customer who doesn't like difficult challenges or learning curves.

There is a difference between offering a challenge and letting players get completely stuck. There is an optimum (the mythical "flow").

The difference is the $8 purchase price. That's the optimum.

And the players are not completely stuck, they are at the local optimal of their current gaming model - a plateau. That doesn't stop them from taking a different path towards a different optimisation strategy and find one where the localised high point is better than this one.

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#229

While I think this is a very clever idea, it's also somewhat dishonest. In the game world, pirates cause studios to go bankrupt. In the real world, the causal link is not as clear. People arguing that piracy is ruining gamedev routinely ignore the fact that those who pirate don't necessarily have the means to buy many games; their choice is purely between pirating and not playing. Of those 90% or more who pirate the…

I think this is a disingenuous argument that comes up all the time.

I was once a teen who was a heavy pirate and although I said it was because I couldn't afford games (I didn't have a job in highschool) I had a $400 modded Xbox, I had a 1800 gaming computer I had a few real games. I managed to afford these things by getting money and gifts from family and working odds jobs here and there.

Really the only reason I was pirating was because I needed games right away, I was entitled to have them on release day. I simply couldn't wait to get money to buy it. Unfortunately now that I'm a bit older I realize that a lot people have this mind set. Its not that they can't afford it, its that they need it right away.

Re: Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they rewarded the companies that hose their customers with crippling DRM and release the same old FPS and sport game with prettier graphics year after year, and penalized those that trust their fans and are trying to push the envelope in gameplay and storytelling. That's a fantastic result. (EDIT: sorry for the rant, but this stuff really gets under my skin. If you are too cheap to spend 8 bucks on an indie gam…

I dont buy games with DRM and I make a point of buying ones without it (for instance on GOG).. My rational is that if the games publisher doesn't trust me then I dont trust them! I also make games and I personally dont mind about piracy.. Its free advertising imo

Well, pirates sure aren't making you money. You care about paying customers.

Makes sense to me.

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