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If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

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Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Technology is our fucking turf, fuckers. Get off our territory or we will rape your shit for breakfast. Maybe this kind of phraseology is part of the reason you keep getting passed over for promotion.

I am using such "phraseology" because we are at war with the upper class whether we want to be or not. What we call the "technology industry" is one of the hottest battlefields out there. The well-connected/zero-sum evil (the current social elite) are taking on the hard-working-and-talented/positive-sum good and while we had no choice in starting the fight, it is in our territory and we must end it. This goes back to…

> we are at war with the upper class whether we want to be or not

Does that include people like PG?

I'm not sure quite how to put it in a way that will do any good, but the amount of anger you seem to be carrying around does not sound healthy. Finding a constructive way to deal with it - perhaps by finding a better job, moving somewhere better, or whatever else works for you - might be something to consider.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my thoughts exactly. the only folks who seem to value mbas are other mbas. i don't even think i can accept the defined success criteria outlined in the article (un-sustained long term growth) much less the premise that only mbas know how to achieve it.

Didn't some guy just kill himself a while back because he didn't have the training to so much as read a balance sheet and ran his company into the ground? While MBAs may not be the best entrepreneurs, they are more valuable in keeping large, mature organizations up and running than Joe Nerd and his series of weekend projects. Hell, that's the very purpose of an MBA.

it doesn't take an mba to read a balance sheet. a bachelors in accounting is enough to be a cpa. and you don't have to be a cpa to read a balance sheet. perhaps it takes an mba to manufacture a fake balance sheet that will pass wall street muster though.

> they are more valuable in keeping large, mature organizations up and running than Joe Nerd and his series of weekend projects

this is the same premise as the article. who says an organization has to be large to be successful?

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#33

The hatred for "MBAs" has little to do with the degree itself. ======================== First, an aside. Paul Graham was wrong about something. He wrote "Why Nerds Are Unpopular" (still a great essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html ). He was mostly right: Being smart seems to make you unpopular. Ok. Reading on... Being smart doesn't make you an outcast in elementary school. Nor does it harm you in the real worl…

>Technology is our fucking turf, fuckers. Get off our territory or we will rape your shit for breakfast. Maybe this kind of phraseology is part of the reason you keep getting passed over for promotion.

Not just phraseology. The whole attitude expressed in that phrase stinks.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am using such "phraseology" because we are at war with the upper class whether we want to be or not. What we call the "technology industry" is one of the hottest battlefields out there. The well-connected/zero-sum evil (the current social elite) are taking on the hard-working-and-talented/positive-sum good and while we had no choice in starting the fight, it is in our territory and we must end it. This goes back to…

I honestly agree with you, at least with a lot of it. Can you think of any constructive ways forward, short of developing a striking new range of organic lamppost ornaments? Maybe engineer-led companies could establish some kind of guild where they publicly pledge never to implement certain kinds of corrosive management practices. Good hackers could then just refuse to work for firms who aren't signed up, and firms c…

Can you think of any constructive ways forward, short of developing a striking new range of organic lamppost ornaments?

Sure, but this is several questions. In the very-long term, society will need to implement a basic income due to widespread structural unemployment. There will always be differences in social status and popularity contests, but once we get to a state where low social status means you're on a 3-month waiting list to go to Mars instead of dying of starvation or health insurance, I'll say we've won as a species...

But let's stay out of society-wide political changes none of us can hope to control.

I like to think that I'm doing my part. I'm exposing The Lie to be a lie, and that's huge. Most people are terrified to speak the truth about ex-employers, as if it would blacklist them forever. (Having done it, it's not so severe that you starve, but yes, you do lose opportunities and I recommend a different road.)

Bringing down The Lie is the first step. Evil credibility systems come down once people stop believing in them, but people still do. If you apply for a job, you often deal with reference checks where "we have to speak to a manager". That's profession of faith in a credibility system that, to be blunt, deserved to die out decades ago.

The thing is, most companies operate on the assumption that 10% of managers are horrible people and therefore if someone drew 3 or 4 duds, the problem is with the employee. But technology draws in psychopaths who want to take advantage of head-down hard-working nerds and it's more like 50% who are evil and 30% more who are decent people but just not competent (and their teams get eaten by young-wolf conflicts as evil asserts itself from non-managerial corners.)

So, it's several orders of magnitude more common for good people to end up with fucked-up career histories than we think. That's also why we have such an age discrimination problem in our industry: by 35, you've had a real career history, not this VC-istan dream where no one fucks you over and ruins your reputation. Almost no one is courageous enough to speak about this, though.

Exposure of truth is key. When I "leaked" Google's calibration scores-- secret performance reviews that enable managers to keep good engineers captive on shitty projects by giving a positive verbal review and a negative (secret) numeric one that makes them immobile-- note that I didn't think I was leaking anything; how can something known by 50,000 people be secret?-- I did a lot of damage to the company's image. That wasn't even my intent. If I had known that a leak of calibration scores could cost Google millions, I wouldn't have done it. I would have threatened to do it unless given certain considerations (transfer within the company to a better manager). Luckily, I can't be sued because calibration scores aren't a product and exposing how a company treats its employees is unambiguously legal. Unfortunately, I've had a number of powerful people come out to fuck up my career.

The first step-- and we can legally do it-- is exposure. Companies and managers that ruin smart peoples' reputations careers, or (much more commonly, because most targets of this extortion cave) threaten to do so to get something, should be exposed with such harsh light that the world loses faith in them outright.

How did I cost Google millions (potentially; I don't think anyone knows the real figure) by leaking calibration scores? The fuckers who run the world now, they need us (talent). They need talented people to have faith in what they are doing. If they didn't, no one would give a shit that I leaked calibration scores and no one would try to fuck up my career years after the fact. If we burn down the facade of this economy of lies and fear down and expose the rot within, then we can right the power relationship.

Also, I don't actually support violence against the rich or well-connected because they are such. (That's just envious malevolence, and as evil as what we need to fight.) However, I am 100% in favor of making violence legal against certain types of social violence-- especially career blacklisting. As far as I'm concerned, if you "pick up a phone" on a private, powerless, employee-level person, or if you ruin someone's career with a bad reference, and the targeted person acquires proof of what happened, it should be legal for that person to use violence, up to killing, in retaliation. It should be obvious that I don't support killing the well-connected just because they are such. If you have social connections, then fine; good for you. If you use them for bad purposes (e.g. you "pick up a phone" and make someone unfundable or unemployable) your skull gets broken, and you might die painfully because examples must be made. That is how it should be.

I support radical honesty and the most honest way to deal with passive-agressive socially violent people is to kill them.

Ok, that's an ugly topic so I'll stop there. In any conflict, I view violence as a last resort. It means that one party failed to be human. Violence is sometimes acceptable and very rarely good but it is always hideous so I generally don't like it.

We are in violent conflict with the upper class. 45,000 Americans die of health insurance (either the lack of it, or horrible coverage) every year. Also, 9/11 wasn't Arabs vs. Americans. It was an upper-class well-connected douchebag from the second-richest family in Saudi Arabia killing 3,000 middle-class office workers (who don't matter to such people, because they're middle-class schmucks) to make a political point. We are at war. It's not a war of countries. It's a war of classes and it's global. Bin Laden and the Bushite neocons are on the same side (upper class). Whether middle-class Americans die or Iraqis is irrelevant to them. They do not all like each other (I'm sure Bush was convinced that bin Laden is a mortal enemy) and Illuminati-style conspiracies do not exist; but when they compete with each other, they do it in a way that makes us lose.

However the good news is that we (at least, you and me, personally) don't necessarily need to be violent. We in the cognitive 10^-k percent for some self-flattering k, we have options. We can escape and outperform them. We don't have to live in high-COL cities and work in VC-istan companies where the founders treat us like garbage because they have connections (read: they went to MBA school with VCs, and know disgusting secrets on powerful people they can use to "call in"/extort favors) and we don't. We can get away from those assholes-- possibly moving to a low-COL city, because we'll probably have to use our own capital-- pool our resources, and start fucking building things that actually solve peoples' problems and make the world better. We (talent in general, not just programmers) are what the world needs. Money is just an accounting trick to keep it going. We have the real stuff and it's time to start acting like it.

Maybe engineer-led companies could establish some kind of guild where they publicly pledge never to implement certain kinds of corrosive management practices. Good hackers could then just refuse to work for firms who aren't signed up, and firms could be ejected if they were seen to be breaking their promises.

The problem with schemes such as this is that the psychopaths will inevitably infiltrate it and use it as another way to exert control. I'm sure many people can suggest examples where this has happened before.

Perhaps this could be guarded against by making some kind of radical transparency part of the conditions?

You ETA'd this after I wrote my original reply and I'm not going to give it the same long-form answer, but... yes, these are very good ideas.

Here's a post I wrote about something that, if I could get the resources (unlikely, but who knows) I would want to build: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/update-on-wha... . What I really think would be a great contribution to the world is to shine some light on which companies and managers help peoples' careers and which ones harm them.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#35
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am using such "phraseology" because we are at war with the upper class whether we want to be or not. What we call the "technology industry" is one of the hottest battlefields out there. The well-connected/zero-sum evil (the current social elite) are taking on the hard-working-and-talented/positive-sum good and while we had no choice in starting the fight, it is in our territory and we must end it. This goes back to…

> we are at war with the upper class whether we want to be or not Does that include people like PG? I'm not sure quite how to put it in a way that will do any good, but the amount of anger you seem to be carrying around does not sound healthy. Finding a constructive way to deal with it - perhaps by finding a better job, moving somewhere better, or whatever else works for you - might be something to consider.

Does that include people like PG?

My honest feeling about it is that opposing (much less violently so) people because they are rich or well-connected is just as wrong as what the upper-class is doing. That's just envious malevolence and I can't support it. I don't know enough about PG; he sounds like a stand-up guy.

My ideology about the class war is pretty simple. If you're well-connected and rich, good for you. No, not everyone who's rich deserves to die. By world standards, I'm well into "the 1%". However, the minute a powerful person decides to "pick up a phone" and make someone unfundable or unemployable, the targeted person has the right to destroy that adversary (through exposure, or violently, up to killing) and is doing a heroic and hygienic act if he does.

It's extortionists I want to expose, humiliate, and demolish-- not successful people in general. I want to be successful and I hope I will be some day.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Technology is our fucking turf, fuckers. Get off our territory or we will rape your shit for breakfast. Maybe this kind of phraseology is part of the reason you keep getting passed over for promotion.

I am using such "phraseology" because we are at war with the upper class whether we want to be or not. What we call the "technology industry" is one of the hottest battlefields out there. The well-connected/zero-sum evil (the current social elite) are taking on the hard-working-and-talented/positive-sum good and while we had no choice in starting the fight, it is in our territory and we must end it. This goes back to…

You should come over here. I think you would like Israelis.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Technology is our fucking turf, fuckers. Get off our territory or we will rape your shit for breakfast. Maybe this kind of phraseology is part of the reason you keep getting passed over for promotion.

Not just phraseology. The whole attitude expressed in that phrase stinks.

The whole attitude expressed in that phrase stinks.

I won't get into details, but I have had way more negative experiences than most people (many having nothing to do with work issues, the main trigger being more than 10 years ago) get and I have a serious, long-standing anger problem. At this point it is a medical fact. I'm not ashamed of it. It's not me, and I do everything I can to manage it. It's the residue of things that have happened in the past.

Anyway, I don't give the square root of a shit about the past. Fuck the past. The past is where losers live, who care about social proof and their imbecilic reputation economies because they're weak human garbage with no vision. I care about the future. The past sucks. It is dead and let it be dead. It's gone because it didn't deserve to live, and because something still-very-flawed-but-just-slightly-better (the present) replaced it.

If I have "attitude", it's because we as technologists have a very weak tribal integrity, which allows these "popular kids" who have credibility (read, the ability to fuck up our lives through bad references and professional extortion) to divide and conquer and ultimately abuse us. If I am errant, it is because I am over-correcting for generations of cowardice and submission.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#38

I hate to say it but what does anything an MBA teaches have to do with being a good leader? Leadership can't be taught, it has to be learned. Those business analysis skills are just that, business analysis. I think the largest problems revolving around the concept of getting an MBA is the sense that with it you should be in a leadership role.I'd love that knowledge but I would never make the assumption that having kn…

"You also need to secure scarce resources, develop cohesive teams, assemble collaborative networks and build lasting customer relationships." The author assumes if you have an MBA, you are qualified to do these things. That couldn't be further from the truth.

LOL that's just the buzzword bingo version of post bachelors degree "successful" life. Figure out how to pay for B school while getting married and pop out some kids and keep everyone on track and happy and cooperative and tolerate the mother-in-law basically continuously and successfully.

Note that the skills are only present if at all in MBA grads due to filtering on the input side, not some magic pixie dust sprinkled on during classes or as part of the credential ceremony.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#39
I was a professor in one of the better MBA programs.

(1) Students. The students were good, both when they entered and when they left.

(2) Courses.

Accounting. Except for students who already knew accounting, the accounting courses likely helped all the students who wanted to be in business. But the undergraduate accounting courses did, also.

Likely if wanted to sit for the CPA exam, then would need more study. My undergraduate school had nothing on business, but if a student wanted a CPA then there was a nice woman in town who gave tutoring, had the study materials, etc. One student worked with this woman in the summer after her Bachelor's, took the CPA exam, and made the highest score in the state. So, if want to sit for the CPA exam, then just do the studying and take the exam, whether have had a business school course in accounting or not. Qualification: That CPA example was from over 10 years ago; the CPA exams may have changed a lot since then. If want a CPA, then should look carefully into the CPA exam process.

Statistics. There was a course in statistics, but I was not impressed with it. The students didn't learn enough about statistics to be anything but dangerous if they tried to use the material on anything important. And the course didn't do much for the student's 'skills' at using statistics software packages. Statistics is taught better, of course, in a department of statistics but commonly also in good departments of sociology, psychology, economics, and agriculture.

There is a lot that can be done with statistics, and to some extent now with 'big data' and more in statistical software, more is being done. But the MBA statistics course was only a weak start for powerful uses of statistics in the future.

Optimization. There was a course in optimization, mostly linear programming. Occasionally in a real business that is powerful, valuable material.

The intention of the accreditation system to ask for such a course was to jump start more 'quantitative' management, i.e., 'management science', via linear programming and optimization more generally. And there are some applications, e.g., there is a chemical engineering professor at Princeton who has apparently some good uses for optimization in the petroleum refining in Houston. And optimization for airline plane and crew scheduling is a solid application.

Linear programing and other parts of optimization long were the basis of a major fraction of the Nobel prizes in economics; the connection with any real economy or business was mostly in the eye of the beholder.

Mostly mathematical optimization still has yet to catch on strongly more generally. Maybe in the future with more data, software, and computer automation optimization will have a new day. So the teaching of optimization was something of a long shot bet on the distant future.

Having a fast algorithm that shows that P = NP might get optimization going again in business. For problems where would want such an algorithm, commonly can do well now, but the work is mostly one problem at a time, slow, expensive, and risky, and a fast algorithm that shows that P = NP might do wonders for 'ease of use'.

Also if optimization becomes more important, then the work will likely be done by specialists from departments of applied math, civil engineering, etc. in specialized groups or outside companies. So, for an MBA, optimization would be mostly only to make them an 'educated consumer' rather than an actual practitioner.

Finance. The finance course would be good for someone who was still struggling with compound interest but would not help much in serious work at, say, the CFO's office of a major company, Goldman Sachs, or a hedge fund. The course did mention the Sharpe capital asset pricing model. Of course the linear algebra and statistics needed for the Markowitz model would be a struggle! For stochastic differential equations for 'continuous time finance', that is not very popular in the US, in business schools or anywhere. There are a few professors -- Karatzas at Columbia, Avellaneda at Courant, Cinlar at Princeton, Shreve at CMU, Merton at MIT, a few more.

Labor Law. The course in labor law might be good for someone who never heard anything about such issues, but the professor teaching the course had never negotiated an actual labor agreement. One of my students had negotiated labor agreements for his family's business and had bad things to say about the labor law course.

Organizational Behavior. Some guys with backgrounds in psychology and sociology were teaching the organizational behavior course. My brother, Ph.D. in political science, also taught such a course in a program of public administration. One of the ideas is 'goal subordination' where a middle manager is motivated to act in ways that give him a short term advantage at a long term cost to the business. Not very deep material but maybe worthwhile.

Generally college and university courses can be good if they are intellectually challenging and, thus, help the student learn how to work hard and think, work, and write carefully, but the business school courses were not very challenging in that sense.

The business school was respected in a radius of 200 miles or so: Significant businesses, some nationally known, would come and recruit.

Likely some of the students met other students who would likely be useful to them in the future.

The business school full professors, chairs, and deans really didn't have any very clear idea just what the business school should teach, especially at the MBA level. The most important influence was to try, although not very seriously, to do 'research' as in physics envy. Contact with actual businesses was discouraged. E.g., there were plenty of talks by graduate students and professors with solutions looking for problems but essentially no talks by business people with problems looking for solutions. E.g., the idea of having the business school be a 'research-teaching' hospital for real business problems was not attempted. The school didn't want to be clinical as in medicine or even practical as in engineering but, instead, pure white as driven snow theoretical as in mathematical physics.

Generally the 'research' was too far from business to be at all promising for any practical impact in the foreseeable future. The best research I saw there was by a professor taking a novel approach to attacking essentially the question of P versus NP, but that work really belonged in, say, a theoretical computer science department or a math department.

Business schools struggle: If they just go for physics envy, then they are mostly watered down versions of social science. Indeed, long the 'great leader' architects of business education believed that business school should be 'applied social science'. That's asking a bit much of social science!

If business school gets really close to business, then it becomes much like learning, say, the grocery business by starting as an apprentice in the produce department -- students shouldn't have to pay tuition for that.

In effect some of what is needed is for some professors to look at the world of business, get a good 'organization' or 'taxonomy' of its parts and pieces, study those to identify where might find some powerful, fundamental principles, and then do research on those principles. That is, the effort would be to look at business and 'formulate' characterizations and useful, powerful theories. So, that would be trying to make something clear and precise out of business that rarely looks either clear or precise.

In biology, such work was long just 'descriptive' but eventually some very interesting science. In physics, too: The motions of the planets were fairly easy for apparently nearly any civilization to observe, and there were efforts to explain the motions for hundreds of years before (dates from Wikipedia) Copernicus (1473 - 1543), Tycho Brahe (1546 - 1601), Galileo (1564 - 1642), Kepler (1571 - 1630), and finally Newton (1642 - 1727) got a good, really profound, solution. Such work is not easy to do.

For students, the business schools at Harvard and Stanford seem to be highly respected in some areas, e.g., investment banking, parts of management consulting, venture capital, and private equity. It may be that an MBA from one of those schools would do enough to 'open doors' and 'make connections' that the effort would be worthwhile for the student. Still I question if much solid material was learned in the courses.

One way to look at business school is as an 'effort' to make progress against the apparently messy world of business. Yes, it might be nice if business school taught enough to really understand business quite comprehensively and make getting wealthy routine. But it turns out that nearly any advantage, even one that is seemingly small, could, at some point in a business career, result in some large gains.

Re: If MBAs are useless, we’re all in big trouble

#40
post #24

In my experience, it all depends on the individual. It doesn't matter what degree they have. If they have work ethic and ambition and they love what they do, you absolutely want them on your team.

Agree. Much (if not all) of the stigma that MBA's face is due to the people who traditionally get MBA's, not what the program 'turns you into.' And for the most part, that's what the article says. To be honest, I'm an engineer with a technical degree, but I'm probably planning on getting an MBA to help foster business skills and gain insight into a lot of different areas of business.

It's tough, because right now I know you're thinking that all of that can be done at a startup - and you're right. But I think that startups needs to look in the mirror too. The xxxx-hacker model has created a relatively disconnected culture. Sure, 'disrupting -whatever' sounds neat, but for the most part you're just polluting cyberspace with another worthless app.

Anyways, I feel everyone needs to stay humble and hard working. There is no right path, and both sides (and all sides) will undoubtedly need each other in the future.

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