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After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

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Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#113
post #39

Must watch video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w...

This guy is dangerously naive. He seems to think (with ardent passion) that regimes in the middle east fell because "Twitter made that happen."

Okay, sir. Time to settle down and reel that nonsense back in.

He speaks emotionally about things that aren't necessarily tethered to reality and his facts aren't precise, and maybe he has the amnesia of a politician.

His message is that prisons are bad, and that we should rethink the manner of punishment we exact on people. His passion is very obviously motivated by personal experience, and that doesn't invalidate his message. Essentially, I agree with him. But. I'm not drinking his kool-ade about "OMG INTERNETZ."

Yes, I'll entertain his notions about prison being an inefficient and destructive practice that mostly leaves inmates as damaged wrecks, and possibly transforms many into more terrible criminals than they might've been without jail time. But I'm going to take his message with a grain of salt.

When I say dangerous, I mean it. He is too new to the internet, to extoll its virtues. In the same talk in which he absolutely RAILS against the privatization of prisons (which is an evil all its own, and yeah I'll agree with his points on that) his next words advocate just haphazardly dumping absolutely anything into the hands of large, corporate, profit-driven nigh-monopolies like Facebook. There's a cognitive dissonance in those two concepts that he very obviously hasn't thought deeply about (and to be fair, maybe he hasn't been given the time yet).

Which is surprising, I might add, considering that he's a man who had his mail read by prison staff, his phone calls monitored, and was displaced across 19 prisons during his time served.

He needs to acclimate himself with some of the debacles of the recent internet over the past 5 years in particular, and maybe familiarize himself with personalities like Julian Assange. If he can bring himself to understand certain realities about the internet, and how it can enable evil as well as good, maybe he wouldn't be so quick to proclaim that it's some kind of universal salve, which can cure all our ills.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#114

   "Staff members oversaw policies that placed enormous barriers between the 
    people inside boundaries and society. In the prisons where I served my 
    sentence, prisoners were even prohibited from accessing electronic 
    typewriters. They had their reasons, I suppose, but blocking people inside 
    from using technology did not go far in preparing them for success upon 
    release."
They have a very good reason actually. Any mechanism for communication will let people on the outside order people they know on the inside to murder other people they know on the inside. Prisons have to go to great lengths to prevent message passing and compartmentalize prisoners from each other. Quiet a few are just itching to kill each other, apparently.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem mentality. Obviously the sentence was not harsh enough, because he still ran a huge cocaine smuggling operation. I wonder if the penalty for running a cocaine operation was death (like in lowest crime rate Singapore) if he still would have done it? If he did, Id bet the next person would not have. It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. Also…

I agree. Sentencing is the problem! All those "ghetto kids" whom are born into destitute poverty (where the only people they're familiar with whom seem to have any wealth are the drug dealers) would be discouraged from selling drugs too if the punishments where higher!

Clearly they would. See Singapore - far more poverty there than here.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem mentality. Obviously the sentence was not harsh enough, because he still ran a huge cocaine smuggling operation. I wonder if the penalty for running a cocaine operation was death (like in lowest crime rate Singapore) if he still would have done it? If he did, Id bet the next person would not have. It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. Also…

> Obviously the sentence was not harsh enough What? Does this mean that the death penalty isn't harsh enough because people still murder? > It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. A problem mentality indeed. The claim that a drug dealer "causes" overdose is just as ridiculous as the claim that a car salesman "causes" car crashes. > Crime has fallen every year…

>What? Does this mean that the death penalty isn't harsh enough because people still murder?

Most murders are not pre-meditated. It people were allowed to cool down for 12 hours somehow, right before they comitted a murder, the murder rate would drop by 80%. All drug dealing is pre-meditated. You are not comparing similar things.

>A problem mentality indeed. The claim that a drug dealer "causes" overdose is just as ridiculous as the claim that a car salesman "causes" car crashes.

Selling safety approved cars is not illegal. Cars (unlike street drugs) are actually meant to help society. Your logic is sadly misplaced. if I you build a car from scrap metal in your garage and sell it to someone that dies in it because the brakes fail though, you'd better believe you are going to prison (as you should). This is a better example of reality than your attempt at misdirection.

>Correlation does not imply causation.

Correlation? we are talking about 15 countries with billions of people here. Sorry, there is no bigger "study" that could ever be done. In Singapore or other Asian countries, this fellow would have been executed - no question about it.

>I cannot see where logic plays into any part of this argument. He knew he was dealing drugs and therefore should be punished exactly X amount? Being complicit in a crime is certainly more damning than being an unknowingly participant, but no part of your analysis uses "sound and proven logic" to derive a 25 year prison penalty.

It is every citizen's responsibility to know the law. Sentencing is publicly available information. He could have found out with a single phone call exactly what penalty he would be looking at. What I am saying is, he is no victim. He chose to convince himself that he would never be caught. The heavier the punishment, the harder it is to convince yourself that it is worth the risk. Asian countries have proven this quite sufficiently. The problem is that our wussified system deems harsh punishment to be "mean" and so enables far more people to suffer in the long run.

If anyone here is married and is raising children, they know exactly how this wussification has penetrated into the fiber of our society so deeply. It is from women gaining power and influence. Women will not punish kids appropriately, they are too emotional and not logical. They allow their emotion to prevent them from seeing the big picture. Punishing your child today is difficult. it requires a lot of effort and requires putting a lot of unhappiness on your kids and yourself, but if you let everything go or don't give a fitting punishment (severity and approach to be 'fitting' varies from child to child), you are enabling your kids to become worse and worse. Eventually they get so rotten than you may decide to put your foot down. It MAY not be too late at this juncture, but one thing is for sure, if you had only taken care of business at a much earlier stage, It would have required less effort and pain for everyone involved.

Furthermore, women are the reason for the crippling level of political correctness that exists today. Women have instilled so much of this that the media, politicians and any other person who is in a position of any influence is paralyzed. They cannot place blame for anything out any group without risking a huge backlash.

Women are the reason for such high unemployment. 50 years ago, people were told, you don't work - you don't eat. Now we give people unemployment then disability for the rest of their lives (Not to mention that there is less jobs to go around now because women don't stay home to raise their own children).

Same with illegal immigration blindness, Social programs spending and waste skyrocketing, over sized government, invading foreign lands to "help those poor citizens", Illegal drug tolerance, poor educational system, Day care raises our kids now for crying out loud. No wonder this country is going to hell in a hand basket. Most parents shouldn't even be allowed to have a cat let alone children. Most moms of young kids are at work for 10 hours during the day and watch 1.7 hours of TV at night. What the hell are the kids doing during this time? The worst part is that (western) men are just standing by and letting this thing go. They are being subjugated slowly. Wake up men and lead your family like your ancestors did. You yourself will not be an ancestor if you keep on this way.

I fear that the west will eventually will fall because of this. Left will be Asia and Africa.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem mentality. Obviously the sentence was not harsh enough, because he still ran a huge cocaine smuggling operation. I wonder if the penalty for running a cocaine operation was death (like in lowest crime rate Singapore) if he still would have done it? If he did, Id bet the next person would not have. It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. Also…

> It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. Also we have robberies, scams, shoplifting, assaults, Law enforcent and legal system costs, ... These are problems with drug prohibition, not drug use. This is like blaming whiskey for Al Capone. Children follow the vicious drug cycle because of genetics. Most personality traits are fixed at the time of conception.

>These are problems with drug prohibition, not drug use. This is like blaming whiskey for Al Capone.

You are partly correct(except for on overdose deaths). If illicit drugs were legal, they would be a lot cheaper - thus less crime to obtain them. But there are plenty of Alcoholics today who do these same things for LEGAL alcohol.

The real problem though lies in what would happen if illicit drugs were accepted and available in society. Drugs are bad. What good comes of them for normal healthy people? How will they improve society? By letting people forget about their problems for a while rather than deal with them? I don't understand how they would make things so great.

>Children follow the vicious drug cycle because of genetics. Most personality traits are fixed at the time of conception.

Whose almost always end up in prison? Lifer junkies kids, or reformed junkies kids?

I have known two sets of identical twins (genetically identical) where one became a junkie (went to prison, homeless, etc) after falling in with the wrong crowd, and the other twin became a very successful person. The difference? one twin was convinced that it was OK to use illicit drugs, the other was not.

Do know that Native Americans are almost all ore-disposed to alcoholism, yet there were none before America was colonized by Europeans?

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem mentality. Obviously the sentence was not harsh enough, because he still ran a huge cocaine smuggling operation. I wonder if the penalty for running a cocaine operation was death (like in lowest crime rate Singapore) if he still would have done it? If he did, Id bet the next person would not have. It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. Also…

>His benefit outweighed the risk in his mind. Why are you assuming he made a conscious decision? Why are you assuming he even knew what the penalties were, or contemplated being convicted, before taking on the endeavor? >Look at a country like Singapore, they have the lowest crime rates on the earth. Crime has fallen every year for the last 20 years. Crime rates have been on a gradual decline world-wide over the same…

>Why are you assuming he made a conscious decision? Why are you assuming he even knew what the penalties were, or contemplated being convicted, before taking on the endeavor?

I am not assuming anything. I am basing what I say on facts that are easily available.

>Crime rates have been on a gradual decline world-wide over the same period. Moreover, this is a good overview of the research into the cause of the decline: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li....

TL;DR: It wasn't "tough on crime," it was phasing out leaded gasoline which had been causing neurological damage to children on a mass scale that was causing them to be irrational and violent as young adults.

Cool story, but I am talking drug abuse violations. These have quadrupled in the US over the last 25 years. http://bjs.gov/content/dcf/enforce.cfm while steadily dropping in Singapore over the same time period. The deviation clearly began when they got really insanely tough on drug crime.

So what does this have to do with lead?

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#119
I encourage everyone (including Mr. Santos) to read about (and do their own research) on why do we have a war on drugs.

http://prorev.com/whydrugwar.htm

This may sound like conspiracy theorist talking, but some of the the source comes from Catherine Austin Fitts, a former Assistant Secretary of Housing/Federal Housing Commissioner at HUD in the first Bush Administration.

A more detailed story can also be viewed on Catherine's site at:

http://www.dunwalke.com

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's partially deterrent and partially corrections. If it were only for corrections, then it would cause all kinds of problems. The most obvious one is that you get one "free crime" to commit. There's also a fairness (and rule-of-law) argument: if two people steal $100 each, why would one person be let out earlier?

>There's also a fairness (and rule-of-law) argument: if two people steal $100 each, why would one person be let out earlier? If that's your justification then the horse has already left the barn, developed space travel and colonized Mars. Look at the number of factors that go into sentencing -- or just the definition of the crime, like what was stolen (distinct from its market value) and how (e.g. on a computer vs. i…

I wasn't justifying anything. The person to whom I replied ignored a few obvious and valid arguments, and I was filling that void.

Even if prison was entirely intended for corrections, it is punishment (a denial of freedom). So there is a fairness argument that if two people do reasonably similar crimes that they should get comparable sentences. That is just one argument though, and fairness (as always) is weighed against other arguments.

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