I think once a country reaches a stable population, you can implement free immigration. You could have multi country treaties where for every person that is allowed in another country you could have one person get in. That would keep flows under control and give freedom to the people.
If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
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Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#42I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…
Social capital is important in societies. Trust between people, people's trust of authorities, trust between corporations. When people migrate from regions where there is no trust in the government, it's natural that some of these bring problems with them. You could say it's no fault of their own -- they are used to the authorities being the bad guys and don't care to follow their rules or tax law.
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Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's worrying to see that Caplan thinks his "keyhole" solutions are politically feasible. Let's say you let the genie out of the bottle and allow open immigration with several restrictions (higher taxes, no right to vote) for this new group of immigrants. First you have a problem with deciding when to lift these restrictions (10 years, a test, only the next generation?). Even if you find a solution, you will be breed…
> you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Telling those people to stay the hell out isn't exactly winning you any points either. In any event, political article, consider flagging.
Winning points with whom? Who is keeping score in this case?
Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#44I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…
I've never seen a good idea come out of George Mason's econ department, and Caplan is no exception. They push the kind of head in the clouds politically oblivious oblivious economics that became passe outside hack thinktanks years ago.
> I've never seen a good idea come out of George Mason's econ department
Really? Prediction markets, futarchy, signalling, ems economics... not even anything in Launching The Innovation Renaissance?
Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#45To see their point, imagine an American in rural Mississippi being told she cannot move to New York City to seek a better career. Tangentially, this is exactly the situation in China today. The central government restricts movement, particularly between rural and urban areas. Many rural poor want to move to cities, but it is not legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registr...
In America, the ruling elites have ways of keeping out the rabble by means of making city life both costly and difficult.
Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#46NO. There are plenty of places that only allow you to build a home on 25 acres. You can't build a home in these places if you're poor.
Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never seen a good idea come out of George Mason's econ department, and Caplan is no exception. They push the kind of head in the clouds politically oblivious oblivious economics that became passe outside hack thinktanks years ago.
rayiner, aren't you from an immigrant family yourself? It would be really helpful to have your perspective on this issue, so either by an edit of the parent comment here, or by a new reply below, why not follow the model of Paul Graham's essay "How to Disagree" http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html and tell us point-by-point what you think is incorrect about Caplan's policy proposals?
I am from an immigrant family (I am in fact first generation, having moved here from Bangladesh at age 5 with my parents), which shapes my perceptions and makes policy proposals like Caplan's seem naive to me. They seem to me the kinds of ideas that seem attractive to those blessed by good government and a viable culture for so long that you think that human society is naturally that way. My family left Bangladesh to get away from Bengalis and Bengali culture. It seems ridiculous to me that someone born here would want to import that toxic culture into the U.S. wholesale by allowing free immigration.
I don't think a point by point rebuttal of Caplan would be fruitful. I disagree with him fundamentally, about everything from the relevance of macro-economics to political debates, to the notion that "world GDP" matters as opposed to "American GDP per capita." A people, acting through a sovereign government, have no obligation to care about the well being of anyone but their own. I think there is a fundamental equivalence between the set of people who would fight in a war to preserve a nation and the set of people that nation's government should care about.
Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Social capital is important in societies. Trust between people, people's trust of authorities, trust between corporations. When people migrate from regions where there is no trust in the government, it's natural that some of these bring problems with them. You could say it's no fault of their own -- they are used to the authorities being the bad guys and don't care to follow their rules or tax law.
Do you think that's part of the cause of (relative) turmoil with respect to the recent influx of immigrants into the (previously) culturally uniform, high-social-capital society of Scandinavian countries such as Finland?
I think immigration has had a huge influence on those countries. It comes down to trust. The liberal policies of the Scandinavian countries work to the extent that people trust each other. And people don't and can't trust unassimilated immigrants in the same way they can trust people who are similar to themselves.
Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#49One of my mom's hippie friends brought up the idea of a single world government to me when I was young enough to think it was a beautiful idea. Every time I've thought about the idea of open borders since, the analogy of driving in traffic comes to mind. To wit, the idea of open borders seems as orthogonal to basic human nature as allowing someone to change lanes into the space in front of you. Even when it is possible that the other driver has to exit the expressway for some very real reason (mechanical troubles, physical illness), it seems difficult to overcome the reflex of NOPE. Of course the scale is different. Letting someone into traffic doesn't cost you very much, in the grand scheme of things. Outside of that one movie plot where you are one minute late and miss some opportunity that changes your life.
The US has been headed very much in the opposite direction for the last decade. These decisions seem very counter-intuitive and I've read and heard a number of stories where people have tried to get into the states to contribute (teach, give talks, consult) and have been sent home. Likely these stories make the romance of freedom seem all the more compelling. But I see the reality of a rate of change that has historically created a bad environment. Think New York City circa 1880.
Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
#50I've been thinking about the idea of free migration for a while. Not in the context of eliminating poverty, but as the perfect implementation of democracy: Vote with your feet, go to wherever you like it best. If all immigration and emigration restrictions were dropped everywhere, and anyone could freely move from any country to any country, and you were full citizen of whatever country you are living in at any given…
I think that in the long run, true open borders would be a death-knell for the nation-state. The two central purposes for nations, as opposed to local and regional governments, are regulating immigration and responding to (or mounting) military threats. After societies have intermixed to a certain point, you'll see the death of nationalism and sufficient cultural and religious diversity in the electorates of wealthy countries that declaring war on any other country will become very difficult as you'll always have 20% of your populace sharing a religion or cultural kinship or some other line of sympathy.
Add to this the strain of large demographic shifts on representative democracies and you have the recipe for a break up into a decentralized network of regional and local governments that run things according to their particular demographic make-ups. The correlation we have come to expect between geographical proximity and consistent culture and politics would begin to disappear.