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Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

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Re: Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

#42

I was expecting this slidedeck to be a bit more focused on defying Spolsky, and whether or not that was a good decision. FWIW, I've never bought into Spolsky's vision that re-writing code is poor strategy. Steve Jobs never thought twice about ripping something apart and starting over. If anything, code re-write can be an advantageous position -- you often have a greater understanding of the problems you're intending…

I'm not really sure why Steve Jobs is your model for code design.

Re: Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

#43
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just write the SQL?

When ORMs first started becoming popular during the 2000s, especially within the Java world, their proponents drummed up a lot of animosity toward SQL. While a lot of us who had started working with SQL in the 1980s, if not earlier, were perfectly fine with using it, many younger developers were scared away from it by these claims. So we've had a generation of software developers who were essentially raised to hate S…

I came from that same time, and I think you are partially right. I think a self-perpetuating cycle has occurred where people know less about sql, so they use it less, so they know less about it.

But I also think that people don't like the boilerplate that comes with direct sql access. I think they don't like the impedance that comes in reading and understanding code. And I think they want to hand off annoying, but critical, things like caching to a lower level they don't have to think about.

SQL is an important tool, and any developer, especially one who is using a framework like Django or Rails, would be wise to learn it, but ORMs still have value and it isn't all about "I don't know sql".

Re: Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

#45
post #6

Bumping into ORM limitations + moving to Jinja for templates --> one word: Flask ...really, what advantage does Django provide at this point in this project anymore?

In addition to what everyone else has mentioned, the amount of libraries written for Django is staggering. You almost never need to roll your own app -- someone has already done it!

Also, geodjango.

Re: Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

#46

I was expecting this slidedeck to be a bit more focused on defying Spolsky, and whether or not that was a good decision. FWIW, I've never bought into Spolsky's vision that re-writing code is poor strategy. Steve Jobs never thought twice about ripping something apart and starting over. If anything, code re-write can be an advantageous position -- you often have a greater understanding of the problems you're intending…

I'm not really sure why Steve Jobs is your model for code design.

Because he oversaw the creation of 3 of the most successful operating systems of all time? I know he didn't design them, but he was involved in managing the projects. Just playing devil's advocate.

Re: Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

#47

I was expecting this slidedeck to be a bit more focused on defying Spolsky, and whether or not that was a good decision. FWIW, I've never bought into Spolsky's vision that re-writing code is poor strategy. Steve Jobs never thought twice about ripping something apart and starting over. If anything, code re-write can be an advantageous position -- you often have a greater understanding of the problems you're intending…

I'm not really sure why Steve Jobs is your model for code design.

Apple has/had a history of re-writing code over the years. The first iPods and their iterations were code re-writes, IIRC. Many of the onboard applications were completely re-written for the iPad.

Re: Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

#48
Iconfinder. They are profitable? They have business requirements? Joel wrote about the problems of a rewrite when you need to earn money, implement money making features, heavy competition while at the same time maintaining two plattform where one is a moving target. I don't think Iconfinder fits in any of these constraints.

Re: Lessons learned defying Joel Spolsky with Django

#50
post #6

Bumping into ORM limitations + moving to Jinja for templates --> one word: Flask ...really, what advantage does Django provide at this point in this project anymore?

"what advantage does Django provide at this point in this project anymore?" Documentation. I use Django but without any ORM and with Jinja2, so it's basically just Flask but with more stack overflow threads and more third-party software. Is there any actual advantage that I would be getting by using Flask instead?

I also use Django without any ORM and with Jinja2 and I'm taking baby steps towards completely abandoning Django and moving to Flask. For me, the primary benefit is that Flask being so much smaller and simpler than Django means you can understand the entire codebase without an extraordinary amount of effort.

I'm curious as to why you stick with Django (other than having projects already begun relying on it)? Without the ORM and with the templates, there's is not much I get out of Django.

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