Live data from Hacker News

I knew exactly how she felt

trishkhoo.com

121–130 of 294 posts

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#121
post #9

I said that’s what happens when we hold events for women in IT when there aren’t that many women in this industry – we tend to broaden the definition of women in IT. I can't really speak to this point, but I am curious, when did computer science and software engineering get rolled into IT? 15 years ago, I would not have said software developers, software engineers, or test engineers were part of IT. IT was that depar…

I'm under the impression that this is a British/US thing. I've always associated use of IT to include software in general with British authors.

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#122
post #76

Isn't this just a density issue - like (for lack of a better analogy) being gay in a small town? I can understand it's difficult when you are too young to choose geographic location - but once you can - the marginalisation is quickly solved by moving somewhere with a higher density of like-minded people. The challenge, I guess, is to advertise that these places do exist - but I see so many 'Geek Girl Dinners' type ev…

> The challenge, I guess, is to advertise that these places do exist - but I see so many 'Geek Girl Dinners' type events I can't believe that is really the case any more.

I wish it was that simple and this was already solved, but even in the Bay Area it can be frustratingly hard to connect with people who come from similar perspectives. I was just at a women in tech event last night and three of us went off for sushi afterward and we all talked about how frustrating it can be to find people who feel like us and how nice it would be if it wasn't so difficult.

I think the starkest variant of this I've seen was when one woman asked another: "Why should we even bother trying to increase the number of women in tech? Sometimes it's not even a good field, why should we be working so hard to get women into it?"

The other woman's response was simple and to the point: "I do it because it'd be nice to have someone to go to lunch with."

The truth of that statement isn't so much in that she couldn't have found anyone to go to lunch with ever, but the relative truth that exists when you feel less comfortable in a group because you're the one who is so different. For many people, tech is a place where everyone is different and different is cool and great. For women, different is often still just different.

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#123
post #25

I will offer an experience which is the inverse of this! I am a male software engineer who works in fashion (and before this I worked in wine.) I knew nothing about wine when I started, and my fashion sense is prototypically, well, male-software-centric. People in the wine industry are palpably aware that people view it as "hoity-toity". Professionals I've worked with are usually very gracious in explaining what it m…

I don't know, I also sometimes work as a programmer with fashion people and I just made some time to learn all the references. These days I work as a sort of fashion person for a chip manufacturer. I can hold a conversation about Haskell and I wear designer clothes to the office. Do both. When you're being Othered, ask questions, listen, and adapt.

I think his point is that you should avoid mocking people who don't happen to know about your sub-culture.

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#124
>She then talked to me about robotics and physics and programming and how none of the other girls in her class understood anything she was talking about. They thought she wanted to build the next Terminator or hack into Government systems, when she just wanted to build self-driving cars. All the other girls would talk about fashion labels and gossip and she would be bored out of her mind, wondering why nobody else watched Doctor Who. None of them understood the joke on her Darth Vader t-shirt. One of them listened to her podcast and asked her what “Marvel” was. One of them told her to stop making them feel stupid all the time.

She sounds very cool.

And it goes to show that "sexism is the barrier" is not the whole story.

Those girls in the school never had any encounters with such sexism in the tech workplace, but they still didn't like the thing even as a hobby.

Which reminds me of my university years (computer science). Those days (early to mid-nineties) we didn't even have internet at home or any outlet to know how a "tech workplace" even is. We expected to work in some bank, some big company IT department or teach CS ourselves. How that work environment would be, we had absolutely no idea.

Still, it was mostly men that preferred CompSci, whereas biology was mostly women. Math and applied math also had more women.

(In actual university CS nobody cared if you were a woman or a man. And we had the outmost respect for geek girls that were in the whole thing. There was just no sexism of the kind people complain about in the US. If you could do it, you could do it. And high school kids enrolling to the university had no idea either -- they were the typical high school kids, having typical high school relations).

That said, it was mostly boys who cared and nagged their parents to get them computer systems and game consoles. Girls, being more socially mature earlier, had a larger social life and could not care less about spending hours every day in front of a screen.

It's like girls give up the "dolls" phase much earlier, for a more serious and balanced social life, whereas boys extend the "toy guns/race cars" thing into puberty and early adulthood even, substituting their toys for FPS shooters, fantasy novels, superhero comics and RPGs. Which builds some ties to computers early on...

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you will miss people, and you will miss good people. But since there is (according to you) some correlation, it might act as a heuristic, employed when it is simply not feasible to implement better tests.

But what if it's a better heuristic for finding young men than engineers?

I would argue it is also a very good heuristic for finding Star Wars fans. Your point being?

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#126
post #57

I wish I could understand what the relationship between Star Wars and technology/hacking/software engineering is, that everyone is talking about here. (P.S: I'm a Software Engineer but never watched Star Wars).

The relationship is that lots of people in the technology/hacking/software community like Star Wars and Star Trek and science fiction in general.

To the point that you get references to said things all the time in programming circles.

I'm sure you are aware of all this, but still wanted to make your point. But the fact that you have some outlier experience ("engineer who never watched Star Wars") should not come into the way of you researching the matter. It's as if I, as a fat person, say "who are those all those fat people with diabetes? I'm fat and I don't have diabetes".

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#127
post #103

I'm not sure the author quite understood the seeing Star Wars thing was a super low bar fitness test. Once long ago my new wife asked me why geeks always wear tshirts with obscure references that no one gets. I was slightly put out by the question until I figured it out. They're a uniform. It's how we id the friendlies on the battlefield.

I am guilty of this (using the term "guilty" because, as we're discussing in this thread, this can really turn people off of being in our field.) My HN name is "memset", and if you've ever written C, you are quite familiar with this function. So if this comes up in conversation with other tech people, and they don't "get it", it tells me something about them. "Hm, we don't have the same background." It remains to be…

My great mentor taught me that every time someone might have a blank face at what you say, look at it as an opportunity for learning. Most people love it when you get excited and say "yeah, memset is this awesome way of getting data ready to copy on a computer. You know when you watch a movie on Youtube it preloads while you watch? Memset is helping make sure your computer is prepared so you can watch it without annoying buffering". People start thinking it's pretty cool as they can relate to it.

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#128
post #76

Isn't this just a density issue - like (for lack of a better analogy) being gay in a small town? I can understand it's difficult when you are too young to choose geographic location - but once you can - the marginalisation is quickly solved by moving somewhere with a higher density of like-minded people. The challenge, I guess, is to advertise that these places do exist - but I see so many 'Geek Girl Dinners' type ev…

Viewing it as a 'density issue' takes the root issue (dearth of women in STEM) for granted, as if that will always (or should always) be the case. The lack of women in STEM fields can be largely attributed to cultural and social pressures, not a "natural" tendency for people who identify as women to avoid those fields.

Saying 'a solution to feeling marginalized is to move to a place where you are not marginalized' doesn't really make sense when you aren't applying it to a single individual.

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a bro equal to a drunk idiotic party boy? If so, female nerds don't like them then either :)

My point was that disparaging someone because they have different tastes from you is stupid. Okay, so you don't like fashion or gossip, and you like star wars. That fact alone doesn't make you better or more interesting than someone who likes fashion and gossip, but not star wars.

It was hard for me to grasp your point from your previous post. Sorry, I just didn't realize the tone of it and I took it as sarcasm (didn't mean to offend you, if I did by chance).

Re: I knew exactly how she felt

#130

I'm going to annoyingly meta on this one because I'm feeling really philosophical today. There is a constant dissonance in the western world between assumptions about "ideal" or "moral" statistical probability distributions and actual statistical probability distributions over a large sample size when it comes to any politically sensitive topics like the one implied in the article (i.e women having an interest in sci…

What we are experiencing is a particular flavor of secular religion called "cultural Marxism". Marxists believe that social forces are best understood through a model of class conflict . Economic Marxists explained the ills of society through the conflict between rich capitalists and the poor working proletariat. The rise of the middle class threw it a curve ball that it couldn't explain and it fell out of favor (out…

Feminism split off from Marxism in the 2nd wave of the 60's/70's when it was decided that class based oppression is a derivative product of patriarchy. Gender took the center stage to class, race, and other forms of marginalization.

The discourse of modern day feminism is best characterized by writers like Michel Foucault. Where discourse is viewed as a postmodern power play. Where the logical validity of the discourse is secondary to the function it serves in power relations.

Post reply on HN