Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#161

Post by geon » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:08 PM UTC

dzlobin wrote: post #106

scbrg wrote: post #32

Reading their press release (the Swedish one, I'm a native Swedish speaker) I get a feeling that they are, quite frankly, not a serious business. It's filled with paranoid tinfoil hattery where they claim the Big Nasty Government is out to get them without actually pointing out what rules they're asked to comply with. Sweden is fairly big on consumer protection, and price comparisons is generally a mandatory part of…

>all groceries are mandated to list price per weight/volume/appropriate other unit so you can find out, say, which bag of rice is cheapest per kg, for instance - the same goes for taxi services and price per km That's actually really interesting and I had no idea that was the case. In a supermarket, would such a list be in the isle next to the food? Or would it just be available from management or something like that…

Carrier subsidised phone ads usually state the minimum cost during the contract period.

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#162

Post by Nursie » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:09 PM UTC

gw wrote: post #156

Nursie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you simply asserting that the economic incentives that do underly the drug market apply everywhere is every bit as arbitrary! Drugs are not like cabs. You can't get a licensed drug after five minutes wait. Nobody actually wants or needs a specifically illegal cab, they just want a cab. The analogy simply does not work. What's unconvincing is you calling my argument a fallacy and then falling back to "oh but it's…

It isn't arbitrary to assert the universality of economic laws -- no school of economics holds otherwise. In fact the entire point of this science is to discover principles that exist in all circumstances. Moreover asserting the difficulty of empirical measurement isn't a cop-out; it's one of the most fundamental debates, not just in economics, but in philosophy. This is Plato vs Aristotle, or Kant vs Hegel. It's an…

It isn't arbitrary to assert the universality of economic laws

But it is arbitrary to assert that it works identically for all commodities and services. Demand for some things (a ride home) is easily sublimed from one solution (unlicensed cab) to another (licensed cab). Demand for other things (heroin, weed, whatever) does not work the same way because the demand is 100% aligned with the illegal item and therefore far more likely to set up a much larger black market.

I think you would have a very hard time proving that the crime levels stayed the same and the crime had just moved. Allowing unlicensed, unregistered cabs that pick (mainly drunk) people up from the side of the road, was putting vulnerable young people at risk. At least some of this demand has been shifted to traceable, regulated businesses.

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#163

Post by masklinn » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:14 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #142

onemorepassword wrote: post #95

The more I hear about Uber, the more it seems to be a tea-party style paranoid right-wing anti big evil government organization instead of a disruptive start-up. This kind of thing might fly in the US, but in most of Western Europe we take a slightly more nuanced view to the role of government regulation. Doesn't mean there isn't anything worth disrupting, hell no (somebody please disrupt the Amsterdam taxi market),…

It's a legitimate business, and they've generally been a bit smoother than this hacktastic email. It just so happens that they're entering a regulated market, and some observers will go full tea-party upon hearing things like "we have extra regulation applying to taxi services due to some experiences we've had over the last hundred years." Better dispatch over the internet doesn't change everything. This email remind…

> some observers

It's the company itself which did that, not "observers".

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#164

Post by glimmung » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

seanica wrote: post #158

geon wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...to the role of government regulation. What did he write that conflicts with this?

"tea-party style paranoid right-wing anti big evil government organization". ...is hardly nuanced parlance.

Perhaps not, but the context is that this dialogue is a response to Uber's response to the situation in Sweden, which is at best jarringly strident in tone.

Dialogue that doesn't /start/ nuanced rarely becomes so half way through...

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#165

Post by masklinn » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:16 PM UTC

rmk2 wrote: post #113

dzlobin wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>all groceries are mandated to list price per weight/volume/appropriate other unit so you can find out, say, which bag of rice is cheapest per kg, for instance - the same goes for taxi services and price per km That's actually really interesting and I had no idea that was the case. In a supermarket, would such a list be in the isle next to the food? Or would it just be available from management or something like that…

Not Sweden, but the UK (and Germany) have the same thing. Usually, they just tell you on the shelf's price tag: Bigger Font: 1.50€/£ Smaller Font: 0.75€/p per 100g/100ml etc. That way, you can see that sometimes it makes sense to buy 2x 400ml ketchup (just as an example where I had it recently) instead of 1x 800ml, simply because 2x 400ml is actually cheaper.

It's all of the EU, this is mandated by EU directive 98/6/EC: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...

> That way, you can see that sometimes it makes sense to buy 2x 400ml ketchup (just as an example where I had it recently) instead of 1x 800ml, simply because 2x 400ml is actually cheaper.

That applies to plenty of dastardly stuff too e.g. the big 3-5kg pots of Nutella you see around Christmas? The unit price is often twice that of the standard 750g pot.

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#166

Post by geon » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:17 PM UTC

scbrg wrote: post #32

Reading their press release (the Swedish one, I'm a native Swedish speaker) I get a feeling that they are, quite frankly, not a serious business. It's filled with paranoid tinfoil hattery where they claim the Big Nasty Government is out to get them without actually pointing out what rules they're asked to comply with. Sweden is fairly big on consumer protection, and price comparisons is generally a mandatory part of…

As a Swede I found it really weird that the "traffic agency" would be interested in protecting businesses. It really feels like someone is trying to do a direct translation of the US situation.

Lobbying isn't really a thing here, and is actually considered to be corruption. Whenever that sort of thing happens (which is pretty rare), the press is having a field day.

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#167

Post by subsystem » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:17 PM UTC

chrisrhoden wrote: post #138

onemorepassword wrote: post #95

The more I hear about Uber, the more it seems to be a tea-party style paranoid right-wing anti big evil government organization instead of a disruptive start-up. This kind of thing might fly in the US, but in most of Western Europe we take a slightly more nuanced view to the role of government regulation. Doesn't mean there isn't anything worth disrupting, hell no (somebody please disrupt the Amsterdam taxi market),…

So, part of the problem is that in the US, not only would such things fly, but they have been on the receiving end of some suspect pressure and investigations. Most of the taxi systems in Uber's homeland are highly regulated and effectively run by strong lobbying organizations who are very vocal about their concerns and distaste for having their business threatened. In the US, such allegations are not only reasonable…

They only thing they (or their subcontractors) have done to date is apply for an exemption which they weren't covered by and then complain about it. If they include the proper information in their app and get it certified as a meter than they might have a case. Now they just come of as spoiled and childish.

Also a sign isn't required and the yellow plate gives you advantages in traffic (bus lanes etc.), but they'll probably want an exemption from that too?

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#168

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:20 PM UTC

LanceH wrote: post #153

kalleboo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except none of this is true in this case - Sweden. The only regulation in place is consumer protection (driver's licenses, reputable businesses, regulated taximeter, comparison prices posted on the cars). There's nothing protecting driver's interests.

So variable pricing is regulated out of market is what you're saying.

What do you mean by variable pricing. Haggling? Having the costs vary by time is fine as long as it's detailed on the pricing sticker.

Edit: here are the details http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Vag/Yrkestrafik/Taxi/Prisin...

Uber could use this standard exclusion: "Tariffs by written agreement exclusively for a particular customer or passenger category do not have to be reported in the price data."

edit2: I'm reading the law now. There are massive loopholes all over this thing. Uber could easily implement their standard business model within this framework if they'd just comply with a few things http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/Global/Regler/TSFS_svenska/...

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#169

Post by masklinn » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:23 PM UTC

dzlobin wrote: post #106

scbrg wrote: post #32

Reading their press release (the Swedish one, I'm a native Swedish speaker) I get a feeling that they are, quite frankly, not a serious business. It's filled with paranoid tinfoil hattery where they claim the Big Nasty Government is out to get them without actually pointing out what rules they're asked to comply with. Sweden is fairly big on consumer protection, and price comparisons is generally a mandatory part of…

>all groceries are mandated to list price per weight/volume/appropriate other unit so you can find out, say, which bag of rice is cheapest per kg, for instance - the same goes for taxi services and price per km That's actually really interesting and I had no idea that was the case. In a supermarket, would such a list be in the isle next to the food? Or would it just be available from management or something like that…

> In a supermarket, would such a list be in the isle next to the food? Or would it just be available from management or something like that?

It's on the price tag/label, there's the product price and the unit price (except bulk which only have unit prices).

Re: Uber Stockholm throw a PR-tantrum when refused unfair advantages

#170

Post by gw » Fri, Apr 26, 2013, 2:24 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #145

gw wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Painting all users of unlicensed cabs as "drunk people" may be a helpful way of coloring your argument, but nonetheless if the only advantage unlicensed cabs is speed of arrival, then that is still providing for unmet demand. If the risk of these services outweighed the time advantage, people wouldn't be using them. Moreover, eliminating the choice doesn't necessarily stop them from being victimized. Whatever form of…

"Painting all users of unlicensed cabs as "drunk people" may be a helpful way of coloring your argument, but nonetheless if the only advantage unlicensed cabs is speed of arrival, then that is still providing for unmet demand." They were drunk people, that's largely who used them. I have been one. If the risk of these services outweighed the time advantage, people wouldn't be using them. False, this assumes perfect i…

I don't assume perfect information; all economic activity bears risk and your choices are guided by your risk tolerance. Sometimes, you make a bad choice and suffer the consequences. Eliminating choices doesn't eliminate those consequences, it simply forces you to either adjust your risk tolerance against your will or engage in even riskier activity.

You agree, then, that awful crimes could still be occurring elsewhere but are impossible to determine whether they would have occurred in taxis prior to regulation. It is thus impossible to determine if those alternatives are actually safer, and even if they are, safety may not be the only priority people have. It is entirely based on your own subjective risk tolerance.