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The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

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Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#41

Post by sillysaurus »

ajross wrote: post #37
cromwellian wrote: post #29

Consumers don't care about implementation, they only care about the content, and until they do, suppliers of content hold all the cards. There is nothing to be won by resisting hooks for DRM in the browser however appealing it seems to take a principled stand. The content suppliers will gleefully go with native apps, flash, silverlight, even Emscripten-cross-compiled codecs. With content consumption going mobile, the…

No, but at least it won't be polluted by technically ineffective and poorly justified nonsense put there to assuage the fears of a handful of ignorant content executives. It's just dumb. DRM is just dumb. It doesn't work for anything but the most naive case. It won't prevent distribution of "pirated" content, ever. I'm not asking for a DRM-free world, but I still hold out hope that if we continue to push back forcefu…

It's just dumb. DRM is just dumb. It doesn't work for anything but the most naive case. It won't prevent distribution of "pirated" content, ever.

Steam's DRM is why I've bought more games than I've pirated. iTunes DRM was why I've bought more songs than I would've pirated.

They were both more convenient than pirating the content.

Is a distribution channel a form of DRM?

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#42

Post by azakai »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #24
JoshTriplett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't. The explicitly stated plan from the people who originated this proposal involves proprietary browser plugins.

Not necessarily browser plugins. Could be browser or OS or hardware.. Each website has control over what DRM it accepts, which leads to a world where hardware eventually becomes the requirement.

Regardless if it's technically a plugin or part of the OS accessed through a bridge, or anything else, EME fundamentally depends on proprietary code (and that code will not be part of any open source browser).

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#43

Post by cromwellian »

nitrogen wrote: post #33
cromwellian wrote: post #29

Consumers don't care about implementation, they only care about the content, and until they do, suppliers of content hold all the cards. There is nothing to be won by resisting hooks for DRM in the browser however appealing it seems to take a principled stand. The content suppliers will gleefully go with native apps, flash, silverlight, even Emscripten-cross-compiled codecs. With content consumption going mobile, the…

Consumers don't care about implementation, they only care about the content, and until they do, suppliers of content hold all the cards. In this case, forget consumers. Once in a while, something is more important than appeasing the masses. A DRM free HTML5 spec is not going to force Hollywood to allow you to play Games of Thrones on your open source Linux browser. Neither is a DRM-infested spec. Instead, you have un…

So if the vast majority of people end up using native apps, and more and more information gets siloed behind these native app clouds on DRM'ed mobile devices, because that's where the money is, and the Web becomes a ghost town, that would be better for everyone?

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#44

Post by shmerl »

cromwellian wrote: post #29

Consumers don't care about implementation, they only care about the content, and until they do, suppliers of content hold all the cards. There is nothing to be won by resisting hooks for DRM in the browser however appealing it seems to take a principled stand. The content suppliers will gleefully go with native apps, flash, silverlight, even Emscripten-cross-compiled codecs. With content consumption going mobile, the…

>The content suppliers will gleefully go with native apps, flash, silverlight, even Emscripten-cross-compiled codecs. With content consumption going mobile, the push for native apps is even stronger.

What's wrong with that? Keep the junk out of the browser!

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#45

Post by shmerl »

sillysaurus wrote: post #41
ajross wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but at least it won't be polluted by technically ineffective and poorly justified nonsense put there to assuage the fears of a handful of ignorant content executives. It's just dumb. DRM is just dumb. It doesn't work for anything but the most naive case. It won't prevent distribution of "pirated" content, ever. I'm not asking for a DRM-free world, but I still hold out hope that if we continue to push back forcefu…

It's just dumb. DRM is just dumb. It doesn't work for anything but the most naive case. It won't prevent distribution of "pirated" content, ever. Steam's DRM is why I've bought more games than I've pirated. iTunes DRM was why I've bought more songs than I would've pirated. They were both more convenient than pirating the content. Is a distribution channel a form of DRM?

Steam is still DRMed, in regards to the installers and for major part of the games even requiring Steam client to run them. GOG in contrast isn't, that's why I use GOG and other DRM free distributors, but not Steam.

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#46

Post by cromwellian »

kevingadd wrote: post #35
cromwellian wrote: post #29

Consumers don't care about implementation, they only care about the content, and until they do, suppliers of content hold all the cards. There is nothing to be won by resisting hooks for DRM in the browser however appealing it seems to take a principled stand. The content suppliers will gleefully go with native apps, flash, silverlight, even Emscripten-cross-compiled codecs. With content consumption going mobile, the…

Emscripten cross-compiled codecs are better than black-box, closed source DRM codecs built into partially or fully proprietary browsers like Chrome and Internet Explorer. Do you really think a DRM plugin would ever work in Firefox or Chromium? If they really want to ship DRM, they can do it using the same tools everyone else uses, without special monopoly-preserving treatment or 'protected media paths' or kernel hook…

I didn't say the Web sucks, I said consumers will perceive that the Web sucks if they can't find the experiences they want there. I've been on the Web since Tim Berners-Lee announced the first web page, I'm rpetty sure I know stuff about it.

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#47

Post by ajross »

sillysaurus wrote: post #41
ajross wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but at least it won't be polluted by technically ineffective and poorly justified nonsense put there to assuage the fears of a handful of ignorant content executives. It's just dumb. DRM is just dumb. It doesn't work for anything but the most naive case. It won't prevent distribution of "pirated" content, ever. I'm not asking for a DRM-free world, but I still hold out hope that if we continue to push back forcefu…

It's just dumb. DRM is just dumb. It doesn't work for anything but the most naive case. It won't prevent distribution of "pirated" content, ever. Steam's DRM is why I've bought more games than I've pirated. iTunes DRM was why I've bought more songs than I would've pirated. They were both more convenient than pirating the content. Is a distribution channel a form of DRM?

Steam and iTunes are what are convenient. DRM certainly doesn't make them so (and in fact the latter has mostly abandoned it).

And in any case both of those implement a very "weak" form of DRM in the app itself. What we're talking about here are hooks for "platform DRM" which is much, much more invasive. Nothing in Steam prevents you from copying files once installed, or even attaching a debugger and reading out game code and content. This will.

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#48

Post by shmerl »

cleverjake wrote: post #4
kxra wrote: post #3

TL;DR: # Myths 1. that DRM doesn’t work; that it exists to protect creators, but since it is easily cracked and can be worked around, it is largely ineffective and irrelevant 2. that DRM in HTML5 is a necessary compromise to finally bring an end to the proliferation of proprietary browser plugins such as Adobe Flash Player and Micrisoft Silverlight 3. that the web needs DRM in HTML5 in order for Hollywood and other m…

Honest question - why is having a framework that allows for others to provide some form of DRM different from any other plugin system that exists currently?

If one unethical junk already exists, why another needs to be created and specifically in HTML? Let's keep the Web clean.

Re: The W3C's plan for DRM in HTML5 is a betrayal for all web users

#49

Post by ndesaulniers »

Laremere wrote: post #30
whiddershins wrote: post #20

What is the complaint. It isn't clearly summed up here. Noone will force you to use DRM on your website. Noone will force you to browse websites that use DRM. What do you care what others choose to do with their sites and content, unless you believe you have the right to access everything everyone creates, in an unrestricted fashion, for free, in perpetuity.

> Noone will force you to browse websites that use DRM. If you want to stay legal and watch their content, you bet they will. Major networks will require their distributors to use this DRM. Sure, you don't have to use their content, but the point of fighting it is that we want to use their content and are trying to prevent them from this step.

Excellent point. We take away the previous held concept of possessing media, making money by renting it to you repeatedly, then lobbying Washington with the profits to make it illegal to not play by our rules, and you're addicted so you can't break the habit.
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