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Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

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Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#61

Post by toasterlovin »

jordo37 wrote: post #52
wfunction wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think this ratio is currently around 25%? I don't know, I can only guess. You can see my guess below. > Do you think it's because women are inherently much less interested in tech? Or do you think it's because our society imposes stereotypes and values on women, and gives very "macho" impressions? It's probably a combination of both, I'm not ruling out either case (or even getting close to ruling out eit…

That also suggests there is a natural ratio, something I for one don't believe. I do agree with part of what you are saying though - the work done in colleges and in the hiring space needs to reflect some sort of existing ratio of people who are qualified and interested at that point. However, I believe there is also significant work to be done to investigate any such natural ratio and fight against it if it comes fr…

"That also suggests there is a natural ratio, something I for one don't believe."

Just curious, why not? There are many obvious physical differences between men and women, why not mental as well?

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#62

Post by toasterlovin »

lutusp wrote: post #24
wfunction wrote: post #8

The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually are in tech to that of the people who want to be in tech. That's the real balance that we need to reach for -- and unlike what many people seem to think, this ratio is not necessarily 50%.

> The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually _are_ in tech to that of the people who _want_ to be in tech. That's a bad idea -- it would stigmatize those who entered the field by such a program that they were given their positions, rather then earning them. The same problem exists in race relations, where equality by law conceals equality by merit. Women are…

I don't think the OP meant to achieve this goal with law.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#63

Post by toasterlovin »

scoofy wrote: post #46
yummyfajitas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of a university context, I would agree with you. So non-academics don't have the right to an inquiring mind? Also, what other lines of inquiry should be forbidden?

Non-academics have a fairly well documented penchant for discrimination and ethnic violence.

Is ignoring or hiding the truth (whatever the truth may be) ever a legitimate solution? Seems like treating the symptom instead of the cause,

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#64

Post by toasterlovin »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #37
scoofy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anyone who believes that women inherently do worse in STEM subjects needs to be called out, in the most negative of terms. No one should say it, period. Outside of a university context, I would agree with you. Statements like this are the reason tenure is still needed in a university setting. No axiom should be sacred if we genuinely care about understanding the world and making the world a better place for everyone…

Outside of a university context, I would agree with you. So non-academics don't have the right to an inquiring mind? Also, what other lines of inquiry should be forbidden?

Also, who watches the watchmen?

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#65

Post by toasterlovin »

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #22
enraged_camel wrote: post #5

Being told that female students fair poorly in STEM subjects, or that the tech industry is lacking in female programmers, for instance, can reinforce those beliefs within women’s minds, leading them to confirm those stereotypes themselves. Beliefs? Stereotypes? Those are facts, dude. As things currently stand, women do perform more poorly than men in STEM, and their numbers are lacking in tech. And what are we suppos…

This comment is almost shockingly horrible.

Can you elaborate on why you think so? It's not clear to everybody?

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#66

Post by toasterlovin »

enraged_camel wrote: post #27
KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is almost shockingly horrible.

Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion. edit: Yes, keep downvoting me for pointing out how useless his post is. I love HN!

The best way to fight fire is with water...

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#67

Post by lutusp »

toasterlovin wrote: post #62
lutusp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually _are_ in tech to that of the people who _want_ to be in tech. That's a bad idea -- it would stigmatize those who entered the field by such a program that they were given their positions, rather then earning them. The same problem exists in race relations, where equality by law conceals equality by merit. Women are…

I don't think the OP meant to achieve this goal with law.

> I don't think the OP meant to achieve this goal with law.

Read the quote: "The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually _are_ in tech to that of the people who _want_ to be in tech."

How would that be achieved without a law? If a law weren't required, it would already have happened, since, logically and without obstacles, those who want to be in tech would be in tech.

The goal is really to remove obstacles that unfairly exclude some people from the field. I don't think that will happen all by itself. If if could, it would.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#68

Post by wfunction »

jordo37 wrote: post #52
wfunction wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think this ratio is currently around 25%? I don't know, I can only guess. You can see my guess below. > Do you think it's because women are inherently much less interested in tech? Or do you think it's because our society imposes stereotypes and values on women, and gives very "macho" impressions? It's probably a combination of both, I'm not ruling out either case (or even getting close to ruling out eit…

That also suggests there is a natural ratio, something I for one don't believe. I do agree with part of what you are saying though - the work done in colleges and in the hiring space needs to reflect some sort of existing ratio of people who are qualified and interested at that point. However, I believe there is also significant work to be done to investigate any such natural ratio and fight against it if it comes fr…

There's must be a natural ratio, the population size is finite!

Divide the number of women who want to be in tech by the number of people who want to be in tech and you have the ratio.

But yes, we obviously have to do some work to figure out the numbers.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#69

Post by toasterlovin »

lutusp wrote: post #67
toasterlovin wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the OP meant to achieve this goal with law.

> I don't think the OP meant to achieve this goal with law. Read the quote: "The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually _are_ in tech to that of the people who _want_ to be in tech." How would that be achieved without a law? If a law weren't required, it would already have happened, since, logically and without obstacles, those who want to be in tech would be…

> How would that be achieved without a law?

By changing people's attitudes.

> The goal is really to remove obstacles that unfairly exclude some people from the field. I don't think that will happen all by itself. If if could, it would.

While legally provable gender discrimination is an issue, I think the bigger issue is changing people's attitudes. I agree that can't happen all by itself, but I do think it can happen without laws. Call me optimistic, but I think all these discussions on Hacker News (and other places) are part of what will change things - that is, people arguing with each other, hashing stuff out, and moving forward. It's a slow, painful process, but, in my opinion, it is the permanent solution.

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