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Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

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Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#51

Post by jerrya »

qohen wrote: post #49
jerrya wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite likely and the conclusion of this Norwegian documentary (well worth watching if only to see Sacha Baron Cohen smarter brother ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjernevask ) You can think of it in terms of Maslow's Pyramid. Societies at the top of the pyramid are filled with individuals that no longer need to take the highest paying jobs, but can now take jobs that uniquely fulfill their interests and desires.…

Sacha Baron Cohen smarter brother If you're referring to Simon, the psychological researcher, that would be his cousin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Baron-Cohen#Personal_life...

Well, I was actually referring to Sigurson Cohen, but I take your correction because I had thought that Simon was Sacha's brother.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#52

Post by jordo37 »

wfunction wrote: post #28
jackowayed wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think this ratio is currently around 25%? Do you think it's because women are inherently much less interested in tech? Or do you think it's because our society imposes stereotypes and values on women, and gives very "macho" impressions (often based in reality) about what work in tech is like, which leads women who would otherwise want to study and work in tech not want to? Fixing the culture of tech and th…

> Why do you think this ratio is currently around 25%? I don't know, I can only guess. You can see my guess below. > Do you think it's because women are inherently much less interested in tech? Or do you think it's because our society imposes stereotypes and values on women, and gives very "macho" impressions? It's probably a combination of both, I'm not ruling out either case (or even getting close to ruling out eit…

That also suggests there is a natural ratio, something I for one don't believe. I do agree with part of what you are saying though - the work done in colleges and in the hiring space needs to reflect some sort of existing ratio of people who are qualified and interested at that point. However, I believe there is also significant work to be done to investigate any such natural ratio and fight against it if it comes from any sort of societal assumptions, as I believe it does.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#53

Post by dvdhsu »

danso wrote: post #33

A little off-topic...but I was just reading "Coders at Work" and of the 15 coders interviewed, only one was female (Fran Allen): http://www.codersatwork.com/fran-allen.html Despite this, the author (Peter Seibel) begins his introduction by mentioning Ada Lovelace in the very first sentence. In the next sentence, he talks about the six women - Kay Antonelli, Jean Bartik, Betty Holberton, Marlyn Meltzer, Frances Spence…

> who were called to be the first programmers of ENIAC.

Interestingly, Ada Lovelace, also a woman, is considered the first programmer. She wrote a program to compute the calculate "a sequence of Bernoulli numbers with [Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine]." [1]

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_lovelace

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#54

Post by minamea »

Assuming the industry is 80% men and 20% women, and that the kind of genitalia you have doesn't affect your intelligence or proficiency in CS, and that the best, most proficient people should be speakers on panels... doesn't that mean that panels should be, on average, about 80% men and 20% women?

Anything more than that is over representation of women. This is just misandry I'm reading here.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#55

Post by adventured »

jackowayed wrote: post #19
wfunction wrote: post #8

The goal of getting women into tech should be to equalize the gender ratio of the people who actually are in tech to that of the people who want to be in tech. That's the real balance that we need to reach for -- and unlike what many people seem to think, this ratio is not necessarily 50%.

Why do you think this ratio is currently around 25%? Do you think it's because women are inherently much less interested in tech? Or do you think it's because our society imposes stereotypes and values on women, and gives very "macho" impressions (often based in reality) about what work in tech is like, which leads women who would otherwise want to study and work in tech not want to? Fixing the culture of tech and th…

It's like asking why do women dominate nursing and teaching jobs? Is it sexism? Is it because men are incapable of doing the jobs?

How come there's no big outcry to equalize nursing so that men are 50% of the field? How about teaching, women also dominate that field.

Women outnumber men 2 to 1 in high school teaching. They account for 85% of all primary school teachers.

No outcries to equalize those numbers?

Must be sexism in high school teacher hiring.

Must be sexism in nursing hiring.

Must be sexism in primary school hiring.

Oh wait, there could be other explanations.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#56

Post by elptacek »

I think two things after reading this. First, I wonder, do men generally experience more positive reinforcement for the acquisition of skills, particularly ones requiring high intelligence, all their lives?

Second, I have never been asked to participate on a panel. Taken further, I've never felt welcome at any conference in this industry. For the most part, I assumed this was unique to me, especially since I wouldn't really enjoy this activity.

Oh, and another thing: I am lesser than no one. I've always believed that. It galls me to be treated this way, but I haven't the slightest idea what I'm supposed to do when it happens.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#57

Post by justin66 »

danso wrote: post #33

A little off-topic...but I was just reading "Coders at Work" and of the 15 coders interviewed, only one was female (Fran Allen): http://www.codersatwork.com/fran-allen.html Despite this, the author (Peter Seibel) begins his introduction by mentioning Ada Lovelace in the very first sentence. In the next sentence, he talks about the six women - Kay Antonelli, Jean Bartik, Betty Holberton, Marlyn Meltzer, Frances Spence…

> I'm not accusing Seibel of not having enough diversity in his book...it's very likely Fran Allen was the only woman available for his book and who played as interesting a part in history as Robert Knuth, Peter Norvig, and the other big names that Seibel interviews

Adele Goldberg would have been an excellent interview subject. Not up to the level of interest of Knuth, but certainly up to the level of some of the others.

I try not to jump to conclusions with these things. There's no telling who returned Seibel's calls and who didn't.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#58

Post by joshguthrie »

jscheel wrote: post #39

After a blow-up in my town a few months ago, I tried to encourage a few notable female tech proponents that negativity was not the way to win the fight. I was publicly lambasted, called denigrating names, had false information spread as far as cities 3000 miles away, and even had a meme made about me (containing incorrect info, imagine that). Negativity breeds nothing but negativity. I often fall into the trap myself…

> negativity was not the way to win the fight

Negativity is never the way to win [anything]. We didn't go to the moon with negativity and as people, we can't get over things with negativity. I recently got in a position similar to yours (oh well, no meme though) and I heartily agree: Negativity only begets more negativity.

I would love to write paragraph upon paragraph about how negativity can change you and how "doers do" and other pretty zen philosophical quotes, but I have none under the hand and that would just be repeating myself. So I'll just say it straight: Be positive :)

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#59

Post by orangethirty »

I offer a learning program called Protocademy (http://protocademy.com). The focus is to learn by building things from the start. Rather than endless reading about syntax, or simple hello world programs. In the current group, there are two young ladies who are doing very well. Their feedback has been very encouraging. But the best thing they told me was the following:

"What we like is that there is no one here judging us for our gender. There is no pressure from men. Some of them feel very threatened when a woman is more skilled or even better at computers."

That is quite the statement, and sadly, true. During all of my years as a programmer, I have come to suffer from such attitude. If you can't code a binary tree with your eyes closed while singing the Start Spangled Banner, then you suck. There is too much ego. Too much macho "I am better than you" stuff going on. Even in interviews, where you get technical leads showing off their knowledge, rather than allowing you to show off yours (isn't that the point?).

I met one of the women in Protocademy while buying a MacBook. She saw my nerdy glases, saw the computer, and asked me about OSX. From there, we started talking about computers and then to video games. Turns out, she is a college student doing a major in IT. Her dream had always been to program, but could never come up with enough guts to do so at college. She is doing quite well these days. Python is like second nature. A good programmer. All she needed was some space to grow.

Re: Stop complaining about the lack of women in tech

#60

Post by christiansmith »

jscheel wrote: post #39

After a blow-up in my town a few months ago, I tried to encourage a few notable female tech proponents that negativity was not the way to win the fight. I was publicly lambasted, called denigrating names, had false information spread as far as cities 3000 miles away, and even had a meme made about me (containing incorrect info, imagine that). Negativity breeds nothing but negativity. I often fall into the trap myself…

Sadly, appeals to reason are not usually well received by an angry mob. Every time this subject comes up I remind myself of pg's "What You Can't Say" essay and then I keep my mouth shut.

http://paulgraham.com/say.html

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