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Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

insidescience.org

91–100 of 145 posts

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#91
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, seems to me their idea can be summarized as "in the absence of a specific goal, keep options open". Which is generally good advice, but only "in the absence of a specific goal".

I think that's what is different between machine and life. Machine always has specific goal. Life never has.

@klipt: Reproduction is not a goal. It's requirement of the physical system. There would be no evolution without reproduction.

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#92

This sounds like nonsense to me. First of all, what exactly do they mean by "intelligent behavior"? I looked in the paper but I couldn't find where they define what they are trying to model. They do however use the vague expression "remarkably sophisticated behaviors associated with the human ‘‘cognitive niche,’’ including tool use and social cooperation." Tool use and social cooperation, sounds interesting. Let's se…

The idea is that these models could be extended to really big complex problems with the same basic principle. Therefore, it seems that intelligence of arbitrary complexity can be achieved with these algorithms.

I don't think that claim is very bold at all, it is merely an observation. The idea that the algorithm tries to maintain entropy is very much like life as we know it. Life as we know it are mechanisms that despite the continuous dissipation of entropy in the universe around it try to achieve local points of high entropy and sustain those.

In less intelligent animals, the mechanism to resist entropy loss is defined genetically. They can not adapt to new environments because their decision making is rigidly defined in their genes. (i.e. they are like simple computer programs)

In more intelligent animals, like ourselves, instead of deriving our decisions (mainly) from our genes, we derive them from an organ (whose design is derived from genes) we call the brain (I've heard there's more decision making organs). Separating the decision making from the the dna is what makes us so highly adaptable to new environments.

There our likeness to this algorithm lies, like us this algorithm can sustain its entropy no matter what the environment is (as long as its got the tools to do so).

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#93
post #6

Very interesting. The big idea, as I see it, is that intelligent systems try to maintain as many possible futures as they can - to keep their options open. People often think that all living beings are driven by the need to reproduce, but the need to survive - to maintain homeostasis, to keep one's shape in a complex environment - is even more fundamental, I think. If you extend the idea of living beings attempting t…

>>>The big idea, as I see it, is that intelligent systems try to maintain as many possible futures as they can - to keep their options open.

Sounds both like the U.S. Constitution (which I've never considered an algorithm until now) and Nassim Taleb's idea of anti-fragility.

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#94
post #27

I haven't read the original paper, but (speaking as a physicist) I'm always skeptical when physicists leap into extremely different disciplines and claim to have a grand insight that its specialists have never considered before. It could always be true: physics really does have a lot to contribute in many areas! But the burden of proof is very, very much on the physicists to justify the relevance of their approach. I…

Welcome to modern physics, where physicists do unfalsifiable and imprecise things based on bad philosophy. Anything goes as long as it gets you attention anywhere. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5562156 HNers need to more critical of Science articles. This is where we need good criticism not on some poor hacker's pet project. Edit 1 "Additionally, a company he founded is exploring commercial applications of the…

Your comments seem strangely insensitive, given that I already said that I'm a physicist (and presumably a modern one).

As I've already indicated, there's reason to be skeptical when physicists stretch past the usual boundaries of the discipline. (Though it still could make important contributions.) But modern physics as modern physics is, by and large, solid science.

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#95
post #5

http://www.entropica.com/ has a very nice, short, video demonstrating the AI.

Completely blown away after watching that video by the sheer range of tasks this AI can accomplish on its own. Learning to walk, balance a stick, using tools, co-operating, playing pong, and...even buying stocks low and selling high! And all of this without being programmed or given a goal to do so. If true this could be a huge breakthrough indeed. Would really like to learn more about the core technology and will be…

I'm far from being blown away. Researchers in AI have demonstrated AI systems with a "blank mind" that can learn by interacting with its environment given some reinforcement learning. They often operate in simple toy examples, but once confronted with the real, complex, messy reality, they fail. I found mostly two reasons: Either their mechanism is too simple and can't solve other than simple problems or it's (computationally) too complex and doesn't scale.

So I'm not saying this approach is bad, but we have yet to see whether it does more than simple examples.

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#96

This sounds like nonsense to me. First of all, what exactly do they mean by "intelligent behavior"? I looked in the paper but I couldn't find where they define what they are trying to model. They do however use the vague expression "remarkably sophisticated behaviors associated with the human ‘‘cognitive niche,’’ including tool use and social cooperation." Tool use and social cooperation, sounds interesting. Let's se…

The article is kind of written in gibberish. It also implies that the idea of linking thermodynamics to intelligence is novel when a lot of experts actually see it as a fundamental of thermodynamics and the universe. It's even possible that this physicist is naive about the whole debate an thinks that he discovered this.

However while the idea is not new, it does seem like he made a software implementation of some some aspects of it and this could be interesting.

I find the link between thermodynamics and intelligence very interesting. Here is how it works according to me. First the best definition of intelligence IMO is the ability to predict the unknown (whether because it's hidden or because it's in the future) from current knowledge.

In order to have 'intelligence' you have to have some information in your head. That is to say, a part of you has to be physically correlated with a part of the world, some particles in your head have to have patterns that approximately and functionally 'mirror' part of the world.

Thermodynamics is about order and this is also about particles having properties that correlate with each other. This means that in a low entropy situation knowing something about a particle tells you something about some other particles. Intelligence would by useless if the universe had too high entropy. You can't get much insight from white noise even if you are very smart.

There is a saying that "knowledge is power". This is truer than you might think. It is true in a very physical sense.

For example, take the thermodynamic textbook example of a container with a gas on one side and void on the other. If there is no barrier between the two side the gas should move to fill the void and settle in the higher entropy case of evenly filling the space. Thermodynamics says that you would need to spend energy to push the gas back to one side.

However, if you were to put a wall in the middle of the container with a little door large enough to let a molecule go through, and you knew exactly the position and velocity of each molecule in the container, you could open and close the door at exactly the right time when a molecule is about to go from, say, left to right through the door and close it when one is about to go right to left. Using very little energy you could get all molecules to end up on one side of the container.

This should violate the second law of thermodynamics but it does not! Why is that you ask? It's because the knowledge you have of the position and velocity of all these molecules is a source of low entropy. Knowledge is low entropy and the correlation between the particles in your head and the real world is what allows you to make predictions and extract useful energy from things.

Note that an interesting comp sci result of this is that low entropy information is more easy to compress and the more a system is good at predicting data from other data, the better it is at compressing such that there is also a tight link between the concepts of compression algorithms and artificial intelligence. But that's another story.

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#97
When I was working on developing algo for shape recognition for my iPad app (Lekh Diagram), I thought in terms of entropy too. But my understanding is just opposite. In my understanding, intelligent system mostly tries to minimize the entropy. intelligent system tries to find out pattern, perform task with some pattern which ,IMO, minimizes the disorder.

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#99
post #27

I haven't read the original paper, but (speaking as a physicist) I'm always skeptical when physicists leap into extremely different disciplines and claim to have a grand insight that its specialists have never considered before. It could always be true: physics really does have a lot to contribute in many areas! But the burden of proof is very, very much on the physicists to justify the relevance of their approach. I…

Physicists are doing quite well in economics, according to economist Steve Keen in his book Debunking Economics.

Re: Physicist proposes new way to think about intelligence

#100
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely blown away after watching that video by the sheer range of tasks this AI can accomplish on its own. Learning to walk, balance a stick, using tools, co-operating, playing pong, and...even buying stocks low and selling high! And all of this without being programmed or given a goal to do so. If true this could be a huge breakthrough indeed. Would really like to learn more about the core technology and will be…

I'm far from being blown away. Researchers in AI have demonstrated AI systems with a "blank mind" that can learn by interacting with its environment given some reinforcement learning. They often operate in simple toy examples, but once confronted with the real, complex, messy reality, they fail. I found mostly two reasons: Either their mechanism is too simple and can't solve other than simple problems or it's (comput…

From what I can gather the difference here seems to be the claim that a simpler, more fundamental principle may explain the motivation behind all intelligent behavior. A tall claim no doubt - so I agree that it needs to be validated with more complex examples.
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