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Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

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Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#251
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a deep breath and ask yourself why you responded so emotionally to these terrorist attacks and not the fertilizer explosion. Is it the loss of life? There was tragic loss of life in both instances. Is it the presence of a human instigator? Or maybe the presence of evil? Are terrorists somehow a greater threat than fertilizer explosions because they are supposed to be rational, sentient actors? Are they represent…

I genuinely want to know. If you kill somebody with an intention to kill them, you are a bad person. If you kill somebody without an intention to kill them, it's tragic, but you probably aren't a bad person. Why exactly is that hard to understand? RMS is not being a sociopath, he's analyzing an emotional situation in an unemotional way. He's bringing forth a dispassionate, disturbingly cold analysis of an event that…

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Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#252
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a deep breath and ask yourself why you responded so emotionally to these terrorist attacks and not the fertilizer explosion. Is it the loss of life? There was tragic loss of life in both instances. Is it the presence of a human instigator? Or maybe the presence of evil? Are terrorists somehow a greater threat than fertilizer explosions because they are supposed to be rational, sentient actors? Are they represent…

I genuinely want to know. If you kill somebody with an intention to kill them, you are a bad person. If you kill somebody without an intention to kill them, it's tragic, but you probably aren't a bad person. Why exactly is that hard to understand? RMS is not being a sociopath, he's analyzing an emotional situation in an unemotional way. He's bringing forth a dispassionate, disturbingly cold analysis of an event that…

> Why exactly is that hard to understand?

For two reasons:

1) Because it's totally irrelevant. A life is a life. Your life isn't worth more (or less) just because you were killed intentionally (or accidentally). All else being equal, would you rather prevent 100 accidental deaths or 10 intentional murders? Anyone with a shred of morality would save the 100. This isn't "cold analysis". It's prioritizing basic human decency over knee-jerk emotional reactions to sensational events.

2) Because it's inconsistent. If what you really care about is the intent to kill, then you'll focus on run-of-the-mill murders just as much as you focus on sensational bombings. But you don't. So when I try to imagine why you and millions of others care so disproportionately much about the events in Boston, I must eliminate the false reason that "it's because they're intentional." What's left is that you are simply drawn to exciting, sensational, unique events. I can't blame you for that. It's only human. What I can blame you for is having the gall to claim you have the moral high ground. The audacity to condemn people who think rationally about saving lives. It's disgusting to read.

> He's bringing forth a dispassionate, disturbingly cold analysis of an event that should be emotional by any psychological norm before the day has even closed out. It's so outside of social norms as to only be classifiable as an emotional disconnect so extreme it has to be the result of a severe psychological disturbance.

Yes, and 300 years ago it was likely "outside of social norms" to mourn the death of a slave. You're arguing as if behavior being socially normal makes it morally justifiable. That has never been true in the history of the world, and it isn't true today. And one's conformance (or lack thereof) to arbitrary societal norms is certainly not a reflection of psychological disturbance.

You are, quite literally, advocating a herd mentality. Gross.

Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#253

I've noticed this tack a lot recently (three arguments like this in 24 hours), and I'm concerned by it. There seems to be an inability on the part of some people, apparently Richard Stallman included, to realize that active intent to harm human beings is not in the same ballpark as passive intent to harm human beings. They're not even playing the same sport. A fertilizer plant has a chance of harming someone in an ac…

Please do not equate rational behavior with being a sociopath.

If what RMS says is true (and I admit that I have no way to verify that) and that fertilizer plant is responsible for more deaths than the terrorist attack, then it is a more pressing problem. How can you possibly argue that point (unless dead people as such do not worry you and it is just anger or fear that justifies the actions - but then, who's the sociopath?)

Terrorism is hardly the most pressing problem faced by the US. Due to irrational fears we willingly spend insane amounts of money and have our civil liberties curtailed... To protect us from something that statistically hardly kills more people than lightening.

This is all RMS is trying to point out.

Nobody is saying that these terrorists should not be prosecuted, just that should put this all into perspective.

A rational person interested in the well being of the people would tackle issues like lack of healthcare, edudation, obesity, heart disease, unjust wars, poverty, civil liberties, privacy, etc, etc, just to name a few issues, before tackling terrorism.

An irrational person is driven by fear and anger and thus typically acts against his/her own best interest.

Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#254
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's a different issue than what Bain was attempting to argue, but I'll indulge. You said, "Our response to deaths should scale exactly proportionally to the number? I shouldn't let the death of a friend upset me disproportionally more than the death of a stranger?" You're misrepresenting what he said. He never compared the death of a stranger to the death of a loved one. What he said is that it's silly to ra…

So why should the deaths of those in Boston be more prolific to me than those that died in Texas? I don't think prolific is the word you mean, but I'll assume you meant "meaningful" or "emotional." No one is telling you how much you should care about Boston versus Texas. The point is that for those of us who are personally affected by the Boston incident, we resent being told that we should care more about the Texas…

The point is that for those of us who are personally affected by the Boston incident, we resent being told that we should care more about the Texas incident, because it is natural that we would be more upset about the incident that personally affected us.

Look, if you know someone that was killed or injured, then it obviously affects you more personally than it would other people, and there's nothing in RMS's statement that says otherwise. And if you were effected, you obviously weren't the intended audience (he was replying to a message to stay inside during Boston's pseudo-curfew). However, if your only connection to the event is your geographical proximity, then that does not grant you some sort of higher-level of emotional standing that the rest of us could not make. Every death of an innocent person is a sad, tragic thing; we don't need to be in Boston to understand that.

"The change of wording wasn't relevant to my point, I was simply trying to summarize his view. Insert "let's make an effort not to get... as an excuse for tyranny" (his actual quote) for the paraphrased quote that I used, and the point still stands: the government's supposed tendency towards tyranny should cause us to resist tyranny, not to temper our emotional reactions to the deaths of community members."

No, you're still taking what he said out of context. And your summarization of this comments is not correct. He did not say "temper", that's your word. He said "[...]let these few upset us disproportionally more than the others." Keyword is 'disproportionally'.

I'm, statistically speaking, more likely to die in a car accident than a terrorist attack. I could die in a car accident tomorrow. My family would be very sad and traumatized. However, I doubt they would stop using cars to get around. In fact, I'd bet they would take a car to the hospital to come get my body. With the Boston attack though, the authorities said everyone should stay inside in the entire city, because of the violence that happened in a few public places. That's the disproportionality that RMS was trying to point out in his statement.

In that you took that he was said you should 'temper' your emotions is no fault of Stallman. You're attempting to parse out an argument that just isn't there.

Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#255
Stallman is a God Tier troll.

He is sincere. He is mostly right. (He's predicted quite a lot of the modern computing ecology). He is extreme.

His one post will generate many posts from polarised commenters, sometimes those threads will devolve into bitter angry flames.

Everyone already knows this.

Yet it still happens.

It's amazing. God Tier.

Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#256
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also a little surprised at the "WE GOT HIM" and the "its the suspect". Pretty obviously everyone behave with this as 'hes guilty', so he's not a suspect anymore. While he very well may be, everyone is supposed to be innocent til proved otherwise by trial and judgement . That goes for everyone. Murderers, thieves, rapists, politicians and rich dudes alike. Oh, and you and I. Hopefully.

You're confusing law for the court of public opinion. They are two entirely separate (and mostly unrelated) things.

pretty sure the police is not public opinion - also happens to pretty much related

Note also that the general public should also know better - there is in fact, no confusion. You're simply disagreeing - part of the people I criticize, in fact, then.

Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#257
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How they cannot be compared? The metric here is the rate of death and the probability of incidents. The goal is to reduce suffering in the most impactful way as possible.

Be careful, applying your engineering mindset to real life. We cannot quantify the human experience. Let's take one tiny minutiae of both incidents with the strong and clear prior warning that there are countless examples of these points: in general, a parent would expect her child to be safer watching the Boston Marathon than standing several feet from a fertilizer plant. That's an expectation that, while your data…

> That's an expectation that, while your data might consider it irrational, is part of the human experience and why numbers cannot quantify what we feel.

You seem to be claiming an axiom that we should make reality conform to our irrational emotions more than our attempts at rational analysis -- I think what you're hearing from other engineers is that they've experienced the same conflict and have decided that it's the emotion, rather than the rationality, that ought to leave when deciding how to act.

If you disagree, I think that all you can say is that your personal opinion is that life is aesthetically more pleasing when you stop attempting rationality. I think you should try to recognize that this is just an opinion you have, and not some objective truth that everyone else is failing to acknowledge.

Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#258
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point wasn't about ideology but way of life. For example, one of the great things about living in a largely gun-free society is that my probability of getting murdered in a drive-by revenge killing tomorrow is pretty low, since I do not belong to an armed faction responsible for an assault on an opposing faction last week.

I think it's disingenuous to bring up the Taliban and then deny you were saying anything about ideology. It was an emotional appeal that buries your true point. You know who else did that? Hitler.

Godwin's Law FTW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

Re: Richard Stallman response to Boston Police efforts

#259
The point that's up for debate is: Are maimings and killings that are designed to change US govt policy more important than other maimings and killings. I think the answer is yes.

I agree that we don't know yet if that was the aim here. I also would agree that the level of terrorist attacks the west is subject to are too small to make us change any policy at all in the way the terrorists wish.

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