I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane • Hacker News Board

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#211

Post by Surio » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #151

IsaacL wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I saw this story, my first thought was to go to the comments and do a ctrl-F "michaelochurch". Was not disappointed. I think this story is essentially the Clueless -> Loser transition in Gervais principle terminology.

That might be his future, but Clueless -> Loser is "going completely sane ". Technocrats are Clueless who go the other way and turn into "Sociopath with a heart of gold" types. We actually believe that there's something worth fighting for. Since we tend to disadvantage our own employability and, therefore, our incomes, I believe this puts us into the "insane" category. We are here to use technology and rationality to…

>> Technocrats are Clueless who go the other way and turn into "Sociopath with a heart of gold" types. We actually believe that there's something worth fighting for.

Thanks! So there's hope for me. Let me know when you are ready with the offices. I might pack my bags and book that ticket to join you. I hope the pay's sufficient ;-)

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#212

Post by at-fates-hands » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

illsorted wrote: post #181

michaelochurch wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have fought the hydra bravely, and I commend you for that. May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. What do you suppose we do? For the long-term, here's the financial structure for the solution that I see: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/gervais-macle... . Essentially, I think VC-istan and MegaCorps are both dead ends when it comes to genuine technical excellence (whic…

I submit Fargo, ND for your consideration. We have oil money, cheap cost of living, and a decent tech community.

I second this notion.

I have several friends who have stayed there after graduating from NDSU to work as developers and engineers. If you make $50K/year you can easily live high on the hog. It also continues to keep a "small town" feel even though its grown a ton over the past ten years.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#213

Post by npsimons » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:19 PM UTC

philbarr wrote: post #118

mduerksen wrote: post #57

(Generalisation Warning) This is the dark side of the (otherwise desirable) trait of "getting things done" as employee. I you don't actively manage your working hours and hold yourself back , somebody else will suck you out until you have nothing left. At the end, you will be very unsatisfied for some obscure reason: You did everything you was asked for, yet somehow noone appreciates you and you still earn entry-leve…

Some of the best advice I've ever had was, "when you start at a company, it's tempting to try and work your arse off to prove how worthy you are. Don't - you're not proving anything, you're just establishing precedent. Instead, quickly determine what the absolute minimum you can get away with is and do slightly above that. Then work harder for the month before review time so you can justify a raise. The extra effort…

This comment horrifies me, and yet it's probably the single best piece of advice here (aside from "quit working in toxic environments").

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#214

Post by infinite8s » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:23 PM UTC

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #133

gnoway wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the type of work you're doing. Most jobs in the US fall under the 'Fair Labor Standards Act' and are classified as 'exempt' or 'non-exempt'. 'Exempt' jobs do not require payment for overtime work. The classification of a job as exempt or non-exempt is not arbitrary but I don't know all the rules governing that. I would wager that the majority of people reading this page who live and work in the US would…

All "Computer Professionals" are exempt, so that would cover many of the people on this site. The other exemptions are rather broad and would probably cover most of the rest.

Almost all jobs where you aren't paid hourly (so basically retail, manufacturing and construction) are exempt. I can't think of a single white-collar job that isn't exempt from the overtime requirement.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#215

Post by infinite8s » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:25 PM UTC

incision wrote: post #115

mentalthrowaway wrote: post #89

This is only tangentially related, but since I'm posting under a throwaway (I've been on HN for many years under my main nick) and can't really ask anyone to upvote this, I feel that this is my best chance for someone to see it. For the last few months I've been growing more depressed, more anxious, and more stressed. I love my job, but it requires a good deal of interaction with clients, which never fails to stress…

> I know about FMLA leaves of absence, but that requires you (!) to disclose your illness to your employee; given the massive stigma around mental illness, I really, really dislike that option. Not true. You don't have to disclose the nature of the condition, simply that a serious condition exists.

Well, I believe you need to get medical proof that such a condition exists, which would reqire disclosing the issue to someone.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#216

Post by at-fates-hands » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:26 PM UTC

I've seen a lot of this over the past two years. I personally have witnessed five guys completely break down.

Hell, we just had a manager who was under a lot of pressure last summer for a huge release. He had a complete breakdown and after four months off, he came back, took a demotion, but he's not the same guy anymore. He used to have a really outgoing personality and loved to talk about his band and music. Now he just nods when you say "hi" to him and keeps to himself.

While I applaud management for working with him and being patient during his recovery, I'm still wondering why other managers didn't raise flags before he went off the cliff.

For me, the larger problem is how do we stop this from happening? How can we stop these situations before people get to a dead end? For some of these people, it's really serious and something you don't ever come back from, which is really, really scary to me.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#217

Post by infinite8s » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:27 PM UTC

stray wrote: post #208

infinite8s wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

120-hours for multiple weeks? Is that even possible? Why would anyone without substantial ownership stake even do that?

Who said there wasn't substantial skin in the game? And actually I remember it as 110 hour weeks (though it's possible that I was the slacker of the bunch). Yeah, we had something like 3 months of working 15 to 18 hours per day, 7 days per week. Totally possible. Totally stupid.

Ah ok, that changes the tradeoff a bit. Your response was in a thread talking about lack of ownership so I had assumed that was your case as well.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#218

Post by PeterisP » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:30 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #98

cmdkeen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they won't. Plenty of good employers understand work life balance, they understand that output doesn't linearly increase with time, especially in development. Good employers push their employees in terms of not letting them coast, giving them meaningful work and challenging them to be their best. That is not the same as piling on work and ignoring stress levels. There is an optimum amount of stress at which humans…

Do you even have any anecdotes to support this? I have literally never encountered an example of an employer proactively managing an employee's stress level. To suggest that an employer can somehow put employees at 'an optimum amount of stress' suggests a lot more understanding of employees than I think is possible in most scenarios. I mean, yeah, we can spout platitudes all we want here. I agree that if you aspire t…

A "workplace" or "employer" can't do that, but a good line manager can, and will. That's why they're valuable - a well managed team is far more productive in the longterm than a team where you just replace the "spent" people with fresh ones.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#219

Post by Wonderdonkey » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #84

Although this is an extreme example, I sympathize and often have feelings like this. But it's not about the amount of work; it's about the constant internal struggle. Let me explain. I have never had a problem about the volume or difficulty of work in any job I've ever had. In fact, some of my favorite memories of work have been sprints to finish something, whether in software, retail/distribution, or food service. I…

If I weren't in a different profession, I'd say we must work for the same company.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#220

Post by infinite8s » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 5:31 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #145

Mental health is, unfortunately, not taken very seriously by many companies. I've never seen a benefits package that included therapy or coaching of any kind. We're put under a lot of stress at times (which can be exacerbated by existing mental conditions) and that can seriously affect our health. I suspect mental breakdowns happen more often than they are reported. It's not taken seriously and it's also something pe…

As you and a friend found out, the problem with putting that much extra effort (especially in 'concave' work) is that a promotion would usually just remove you from the work pool, leading to the ironic effect that the harder you work, the more likely you will limit your chances of moving up.