I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane • Hacker News Board

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#171

Post by rm999 » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:16 PM UTC

philbarr wrote: post #118

mduerksen wrote: post #57

(Generalisation Warning) This is the dark side of the (otherwise desirable) trait of "getting things done" as employee. I you don't actively manage your working hours and hold yourself back , somebody else will suck you out until you have nothing left. At the end, you will be very unsatisfied for some obscure reason: You did everything you was asked for, yet somehow noone appreciates you and you still earn entry-leve…

Some of the best advice I've ever had was, "when you start at a company, it's tempting to try and work your arse off to prove how worthy you are. Don't - you're not proving anything, you're just establishing precedent. Instead, quickly determine what the absolute minimum you can get away with is and do slightly above that. Then work harder for the month before review time so you can justify a raise. The extra effort…

You should spend your early time at a company gaining an understanding of its business needs (basically understand why you're there) so you can later take 'ownership' of important projects and tasks. Ultimately you'll be judged by your importance to the company, not much you work (although those two are positively correlated).

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#172

Post by datashaman » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:18 PM UTC

pharrington wrote: post #119

tgflynn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like labeling this type of situation mental illness. That suggests that it's only the individual who is ill. It seems to me that situations like this result from a sick system as much or more than from individual sickness.

No one's saying terrible circumstances don't exist. Mental illness is exasperated by terrible circumstances.

Exacerbated?

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#173

Post by obviouslygreen » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:18 PM UTC

peterkelly wrote: post #170

obviouslygreen wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be good advice in the sense of being effective, but encouraging people to actively deceive their employers and intentionally do as little as possible is disingenuous and dishonest. If you don't think that reflects on your integrity, or if you don't consider your integrity worth maintaining, then this really is advice that you could consider good. But telling this to impressionable people who are inexperience…

I think a better version of the parent comment's advice would be figure out what is a reasonable, healthy, sustainable level of productivity and try to work as close to that as possible - and no more.

Yes, this is good advice. It centers on the person and advocates a work/life balance. It doesn't center on the employer and how they can be manipulated and cheated for the employee's benefit.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#174

Post by michaelochurch » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:18 PM UTC

obviouslygreen wrote: post #165

michaelochurch wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 130, you start to question and dislike authority, but you can still hold back. At 150, authority comes to you looking for fights (even if you don't do anything to it) because you make it insecure about its inherent illegitimacy and moral emptiness. Actual 150s are pretty rare: about 43 per 100,000 people. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=3.333+sigma

I'm interested to know whether this IQ conflict theory is actually based on something or whether it's coming from your posterior.

Experience and observation. Don't discount them. The first person to say the sky was blue was going out on a limb, too. What if everyone else saw an orange sky?

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#175

Post by tgflynn » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:18 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #154

tgflynn wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of human beings being treated like cogs in a machine (which is in fact what they are in today's world). The potential of highly intelligent people is wasted by those who are better at extracting value than creating it. This leads to ever growing frustration which eventually explodes leading to the destruction of peoples lives. These are seen as individual problems but if these trends continue I believe…

human beings being treated like cogs in a machine You realize that Hacker News is focused on people starting businesses, right? Why are you here? hard worker - exactly the type of concept that the machine uses to exploit the naive. When you get your car worked on, do you expect that the mechanic should fix your car because you're paying him to or because you give him a hug and tell him that he's a useful human being?…

Why are you here ?

This is absolutely typical of the problem with society.

Judge me, exclude me, push me under a bridge.

It doesn't matter what you do to me, the day will come when man will be judged by those he has judged.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#176

Post by peterkelly » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:20 PM UTC

auctiontheory wrote: post #11

Mental illness is very common. This story has nothing to do with programming, except that technically strong people are given a lot of leeway for strange behavior, meaning that folks who need treatment often do not get it soon enough. The other point, and I think by now all of us should know this, is that we are each responsible for our health and our careers - we cannot look forward to a lifetime with a paternalisti…

Mental illness is certainly common, but someone who is normally able to cope ok can be pushed over the edge when under too much stress, and even who initially has no mental health problems at all can end up being driven to insanity, given the right conditions.

We need to be treating mental health just as importantly as physical health. There's all sorts of OH&S guidelines for proper posture, lifting things etc. Similarly, there should be OH&S guidelines for ensuring employees are provided with a safe working environment in which they're not going to end up like this (at least, to the extent that work contributed to their condition).

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#177

Post by wnight » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:21 PM UTC

thelittlelisper wrote: post #141

konstruktor wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you work in a company you don't own, there are a lot of things you will encounter that not under your control (1). Personally, I find the Stoics' attitude very helpful when dealing with that fact. They advocate distinguishing between what is in our control and what isn't, suggesting to focus on acting honorably oneself, but always with reservation, i.e. aware that others can always stop us from reaching our goal…

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I work at one of the top cancer research labs in the world, and you'd be surprised how dysfunctional our organization has become. It's perfectly described by what edw519 has outlined. Seeing millions of dollars poured in projects that go nowhere since they are executed by incompetent workers lead by machiavellian managers is horribly depressing. I feel that a startup setting would be…

Leak details. If nothing else, more light on the area would make it harder to screw around.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#178

Post by peterkelly » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:23 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #155

Is the issue really work-life balance, or mental health? They are actually two separate things. I had a roommate lose it. He was very disciplined, but had a chemical imbalance in his head. He was a hard worker, but did this really have any impact on his losing it? I am not an expert, but I doubt it. The end lesson of "Don't kill yourself for a company if they don't respect you" may be true, but that seems a little di…

Is the issue really work-life balance, or mental health? They are actually two separate things.

Perhaps, but I believe there's a close relationship between the two. Getting the balance wrong can definitely lead to mental health problems.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#179

Post by obviouslygreen » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:26 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #174

obviouslygreen wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested to know whether this IQ conflict theory is actually based on something or whether it's coming from your posterior.

Experience and observation. Don't discount them. The first person to say the sky was blue was going out on a limb, too. What if everyone else saw an orange sky?

I'm not discounting them; I'm also not just nodding vacantly. But comparing your observations to widely-accepted facts like the color of the sky doesn't exactly scream rationality.

Your assertion is that people with high IQ (which we're taking your word for, as well as the accuracy of the tests that we're assuming they took and shared the results with you) actually had the government after them in numerous enough occasions to be statistically significant. We're further assuming that you're right in that this is generalizable beyond your sample set (which is how big?), and then that there's no sample bias going on that would make your observations irrelevant to most populations.

I don't see any reason to believe that what you've seen can actually be called representative. No, just because there isn't a study behind it doesn't mean it isn't true. But that also means you have no grounds beyond "experience and observation" to make your statement, and when you're giving basically no useful data on how you reached your conclusion, no rational person would call this a useful or valid generalization. A hypothesis worthy of testing, perhaps. But that's all it is.

Re: I Knew a Programmer Who Went Completely Insane

#180

Post by PakG1 » Fri, Apr 19, 2013, 3:28 PM UTC

abc_lisper wrote: post #167

PakG1 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact of the matter is that a lot of technical people who are geniuses technically do not have the qualities necessary to be good managers. Good managing requires ability to communicate up, down, and across the corporate hierarchy and the political minefield that comes with it. Good managers will balance out good technical people in terms of skillset, and help their team to do their job, while also coaching them i…

Right, you are talking about ideal managers. Which, if we had, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm just trying to say that just because one may not have experienced them or seen them does not mean they don't exist. I've worked for a few and with a few. They helped me grow.